EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

Grumpy Git · 15 Jan 2020

Be interesting if the 'phone companies think can get away with re-introducing roaming / mobile data fees.

Anyone who has had the misfortune to make a call whilst in Turkey will know only too well they are bloody expensive.

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najaB · 15 Jan 2020

Grumpy Git said:
Be interesting if the 'phone companies think can get away with re-introducing roaming / mobile data fees.

The only thing stopping them will be competitive advantage - nobody will want to be first. So I doubt it would happen on Day 1, but don't be surprised if they creep back in over time.

I used to work for a telco and I can assure you that they were not happy when the regulations changed to eliminate roaming charges.

Grumpy Git · 15 Jan 2020

najaB said:
The only thing stopping them will be competitive advantage - nobody will want to be first. So I doubt it would happen on Day 1, but don't be surprised if they creep back in over time.

I wonder if I'll be able to get a German sim card, (I've been working in Europe almost full time recently)?

jon0844 · 15 Jan 2020

JonasB said:
When I hear "Brexit means Brexit" and "Take back control", I sometimes wonder what the situation would have been like if remain had won with 52% of the votes. And David Cameron had announced that the people had spoken and remain means remain, and that the UK would now join Schengen, replace the pound with the euro, fully convert to SI-units and start driving on the right. What would the headlines in the Sun and the Daily Mail have been?

najaB said:
Of course they've said that. Those nice charitable companies will continue to provide a service that costs them more without passing the charges through to their customers, just like they always do.

No plans doesn't even mean it has been totally ruled out.

Thing is, before the recent changes the EU introduced, it was possible to use your data abroad but it was traffic managed. Net neutrality rules prevented them blocking video streaming services and some other things when roaming - which still happens outside the EU on some networks like Three (it's why they could offer free roaming in places like the USA and Australia etc, and Europe before the new rules).

You can be sure that even though charges won't necessarily change, they'll cap data allowances or cap speeds and services. It will be like the bad old days, so many people will be back to seeking out local prepay SIM cards to get decent data service. A right PITA for many, and maybe even harder now many networks need you to produce ID or even have a local address.

ValentaFan1974 · 15 Jan 2020

Market forces will regulate this. Also OFCOM have said they may legislate for that as well.

Also, for non-EU countries, most networks have roaming bundles, so not much different to a couple of years ago...

jon0844 · 15 Jan 2020

najaB said:
The only thing stopping them will be competitive advantage - nobody will want to be first. So I doubt it would happen on Day 1, but don't be surprised if they creep back in over time.

I used to work for a telco and I can assure you that they were not happy when the regulations changed to eliminate roaming charges.

Quite. I think before the tariff changes, we'll see traffic management, data caps and a block on tethering. Trust me, the service won't be like we've just got used to and everyone is back to local SIMs or seeking out potentially insecure Wi-Fi.

jon0844 · 15 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
Market forces will regulate this. Also OFCOM have said they may legislate for that as well.

Also, for non-EU countries, most networks have roaming bundles, so not much different to a couple of years ago...

It's much more than a simple bundle. The EU allows a limit on unlimited plans when roaming, but not for any of the data to be restricted. Before that came into effect, Three was blocking just about everything and still does outside the EU.

Others weren't quite as bad, but they won't hesitate to introduce restrictions where they can - and maybe charge for them to be lifted. Hence increase cost.

ValentaFan1974 · 15 Jan 2020

..... what I’m trying to say is that if you go anywhere else in the world, you normally have to buy a bundle to save money. We’ll just have to get used to going back to that. Last time I went to Tenerife 2 years ago most people at the hotel had their heads buried in their phones instead of enjoying themselves. Maybe the reintroduction of charges will be a good thing in that regard...

Peter Kelford · 15 Jan 2020

najaB said:
The only thing stopping them will be competitive advantage - nobody will want to be first. So I doubt it would happen on Day 1, but don't be surprised if they creep back in over time.

I used to work for a telco and I can assure you that they were not happy when the regulations changed to eliminate roaming charges.

It's like at those communist rallies where no one could stop clapping. One person did, at one point, even though the applause might be longer than it otherwise is.

Grumpy Git said:
I wonder if I'll be able to get a German sim card, (I've been working in Europe almost full time recently)?

Of course, or a PAYG one at least.

najaB said:
Of course they've said that. Those nice charitable companies will continue to provide a service that costs them more without passing the charges through to their customers, just like they always do.

Where's the like button?

NoMorePacers · 15 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
..... what I’m trying to say is that if you go anywhere else in the world, you normally have to buy a bundle to save money. We’ll just have to get used to going back to that. Last time I went to Tenerife 2 years ago most people at the hotel had their heads buried in their phones instead of enjoying themselves. Maybe the reintroduction of charges will be a good thing in that regard...

Why do we have to get used to it? We don’t even need to do it in the first place!

ValentaFan1974 · 15 Jan 2020

NoMorePacers said:
Why do we have to get used to it? We don’t even need to do it in the first place!

... because we’ve only had the roaming rules in place for the last few years?

In any case, EE for example offered inclusive EU roaming 4 years before it was legally enforced, at their own cost, so what’s to say they won’t continue to do it?

VauxhallandI · 15 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
... because we’ve only had the roaming rules in place for the last few years?

In any case, EE for example offered inclusive EU roaming 4 years before it was legally enforced, at their own cost, so what’s to say they won’t continue to do it?

Apologists for Brexit PITA's will be the next wave

jon0844 · 15 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
... because we’ve only had the roaming rules in place for the last few years?

In any case, EE for example offered inclusive EU roaming 4 years before it was legally enforced, at their own cost, so what’s to say they won’t continue to do it?

The EU phased the removal of all fees and restrictions over a number of years to allow networks to adjust (read: find new things to charge for - like the service fees and other admin charges) so besides Three, nobody really did anything early.

Only at the final stage were all restrictions removed and it is hilarious that consumer programmes talked about roaming fees and bill shock for so long, yet now some Brexiteers think it is great as nobody should use a phone on holiday.

Let's ignore those who might want to listen to Spotify or watch Netflix at an airport, look at maps or dare to do some work when travelling (I suppose businesses can just pass on the cost to customers though).

So much winning.

Fact is, if we want to know for 100% there won't be any changes we should have stayed in.

I don't think roaming fees will be introduced but networks being what they are will likely collude to increase the basic plan costs across the board, or lower the amount of data you can use so you'll need to top up even if you have unlimited data.

If any new fee is introduced, the other networks almost always follow. Not that I am going to use the word cartel as it most certainly isn't. Just huge coincidences...

najaB · 15 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
In any case, EE for example offered inclusive EU roaming 4 years before it was legally enforced, at their own cost, so what’s to say they won’t continue to do it?

Because they knew it was coming, so it made sense to get ahead of the pack with a loss-leader to try and win customers from the networks who were slower off the mark.

jon0844 · 15 Jan 2020

najaB said:
Because they knew it was coming, so it made sense to get ahead of the pack with a loss-leader to try and win customers from the networks who were slower off the mark.

Exactly why Three launched inclusive roaming so far ahead of everyone. As the interconnect charges were lowering (and the tiers were known by all), it seemed worth a gamble to get customers.

The One Plan was also a punt, ahead of the industry reducing the termination fees. Now all networks offer unlimited data plans, but unlimited data (and tethering) was crazy cheap - with Three charging just £25 a month at the time, lowered to £15 for a while.

Yes, £15 or £180 per year on a SIM-only plan with unlimited data, including tethering and roaming in the EU and beyond. Total madness (but I was happy to take advantage!) as it did secure loads of customers but was far too cheap to make retaining such customers profitable, and eventually they kicked people off the plan or allowed them to stay on a new plan without tethering for £30 a month.

I knocked it down to £20 which I still pay today, and thanks to the EU and Ofcom implementing net neutrality, I can now tether all my data at home and abroad for no extra money.

Not only do I expect this will end in the EU, I am not convinced Ofcom won't reverse the move and allow UK operators to restrict tethering here in the UK too (it won't be bound by EU law). You can be 100000% sure the operators will lobby Ofcom relentlessly to make this happen.

The FCC caved in on net neutrality Stateside after all. And we love the good old USA!

Peter Kelford · 16 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
... because we’ve only had the roaming rules in place for the last few years?

In any case, EE for example offered inclusive EU roaming 4 years before it was legally enforced, at their own cost, so what’s to say they won’t continue to do it?

One or two companies might but not all companies if all companies offer it, it's the same in terms of attracting customers as no companies having it.

ValentaFan1974 · 16 Jan 2020

jon0844 said:
I don't think roaming fees will be introduced but networks being what they are will likely collude to increase the basic plan costs across the board, or lower the amount of data you can use so you'll need to top up even if you have unlimited data.

You don’t have unlimited data when roaming anyway, as there is a fair use policy abroad and excess charges apply if exceeding that.

What do you currently do if you want to go to Turkey on holiday for example? You need a visa and if you want to roam abroad on your phone you can buy bundles to make the cost cheaper, or pay the standard roaming rates (unless you’re on Vodafone who’ve made it inclusive on their plan)....

Going around in circles here so we’ll just agree to disagree.

najaB · 16 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
What do you currently do if you want to go to Turkey on holiday for example?

I don't want to go to Turkey on holiday. I do, however, want to visit friends in the EU. Today I can do that without incurring any additional roaming charges. This time next year or the year after?

ValentaFan1974 · 16 Jan 2020

Do the same as everyone did before June 2016 and buy a bundle? Nothing is going to change this year anyway due to the implementation period and I seriously doubt anything substantial will change after that so relax...

jellybaby · 16 Jan 2020

jon0844 said:
£15 or £180 per year on a SIM-only plan with unlimited data, including tethering and roaming in the EU and beyond

jon0844 said:
and eventually they kicked people off the plan or allowed them to stay on a new plan without tethering for £30 a month

Some people managed to stay on the £15 unlimited data plan when everyone else got shifted for unknown reasons.
(but this is off topic now)

Peter Kelford · 16 Jan 2020

najaB said:
I don't want to go to Turkey on holiday. I do, however, want to visit friends in the EU. Today I can do that without incurring any additional roaming charges. This time next year or the year after?

Agreed.

najaB · 16 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
Do the same as everyone did before June 2016 and buy a bundle?

Well, yes. I'll have no choice. But I guess that's the price we pay for freedom (£8/MiB). :rolleyes:

jon0844 · 16 Jan 2020

najaB said:
Well, yes. I'll have no choice. But I guess that's the price we pay for freedom (£8/MiB).

I remember buying 50MB bundles. How far does 50MB go on a modern smartphone?

nlogax · 16 Jan 2020

jon0844 said:
I remember buying 50MB bundles. How far does 50MB go on a modern smartphone?

A couple of auto app updates and that 50MB could disappear in a few seconds.

najaB · 16 Jan 2020

jon0844 said:
How far does 50MB go on a modern smartphone?

Not quite as far as 50MiB.

ValentaFan1974 · 17 Jan 2020

najaB said:
I don't want to go to Turkey on holiday. I do, however, want to visit friends in the EU. Today I can do that without incurring any additional roaming charges. This time next year or the year after?

I have just thought about the coin being spun. Yes, you want to visit your friends in the EU and be able to use your phone “inclusive”, but what about the customers of mobile networks who don’t travel abroad, even to the EU, who now have to face higher domestic charges because people want to swan around on Facebook Live all week whilst in Malaga? What is good, convenient and better value for you, isn’t necessarily the same for someone housebound for example, who now has to pay more for others. Those who want to roam abroad (myself included) should pay for it in my opinion.

Just saying....

AlterEgo · 17 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
I have just thought about the coin being spun. Yes, you want to visit your friends in the EU and be able to use your phone “inclusive”, but what about the customers of mobile networks who don’t travel abroad, even to the EU, who now have to face higher domestic charges because people want to swan around on Facebook Live all week whilst in Malaga? What is good, convenient and better value for you, isn’t necessarily the same for someone housebound for example, who now has to pay more for others. Those who want to roam abroad (myself included) should pay for it in my opinion.

Just saying....

You want to pay roaming charges?? You know how much they are?

najaB · 17 Jan 2020

ValentaFan1974 said:
Yes, you want to visit your friends in the EU and be able to use your phone “inclusive”, but what about the customers of mobile networks who don’t travel abroad, even to the EU, who now have to face higher domestic charges because people want to swan around on Facebook Live all week whilst in Malaga?

Yes, that's true. I remember tariffs increasing when EU roaming charges were abolished. Oh, wait...

Peter Kelford · 17 Jan 2020

Roaming charges are about making the EU uniform. Just because I've taken a 30-minute train ride doesn't mean that I should be paying double phone rates.

najaB · 17 Jan 2020

Peter Kelford said:
Roaming charges are about making the EU uniform. Just because I've taken a 30-minute train ride doesn't mean that I should be paying double phone rates.

Or, in the case of border areas (e.g. Northern Ireland), a five minute walk.

They are also an example of EU consumer protection. Roaming costs the network provider, but only a tiny fraction of what they were charging their customers. If the providers had been reasonable and only passed on the real extra costs then the EU wouldn't have acted to remove the charges completely.

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