Flybe problems - did they take rail improvements into account?

sheff1 said:

On my frequent travels to/from Belfast my fellow Flybe passengers do not stike me as being "the wealthy". In fact they mostly seem to be exactly the sort of people who used to travel on the Dublin ferries as foot passengers back in the 70s/80s and who now, for the Republic, use Ryanair to/from their local airports.

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My last Southampton <> Newcastle return with FlyBe, about 2 years ago, I’d have said the passengers were pretty much indistinguishable from a typical train carriage load. The choice between FlyBe over XC was easy to make purely on travel time, given that the cost was basically the same.

Instead of bailing out / reducing APD, they could have done like Germany, reduce VAT on rail tickets by 12% ?

swills said:

Instead of bailing out / reducing APD, they could have done like Germany, reduce VAT on rail tickets by 12% ?

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They couldn't reduce VAT on UK rail tickets because it is already 0%.

swills said:

Instead of bailing out / reducing APD, they could have done like Germany, reduce VAT on rail tickets by 12% ?

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There is no VAT on UK rail tickets.

Another problem with long distance rail that avoids London is that the direct Cross Country Trains from the south-west to Edinburgh go the long way via Newcastle* - thus taking an hour or so more than they would take using the west coast route from Birmingham. Of course, one can always change at Birmingham to/from XC to Avanti but you try getting a reasonably priced through ticket when two companies are involved - unlike the situation from London where each route has one company who offer advance through fares. The same problem occurs from say Cardiff to the north & Scotland. No proper through Inter City Trains from south Wales to the north-east (Newcastle) & high XC fares plus 1 change. The Marches route (via Hereford) is the quickest & shortest way of going from Cardiff/Newport to Edinburgh/Glasgow but again - no proper Inter City Trains south of Crewe - where people must change allied with 2 companies who on a price search do not come up with a reasonably priced through ticket. So, those savvy with the system will search for a Crewe to Scotland ticket with Avanti and then do the same again for a Transport for Wales ticket for the southern leg - which may well cost more no doubt due to the SHORT TRAINS - which double up as local stoppers. Then we have the ridiculous situation where return tickets may be only £1 or so more than one way tickets - thus the railways are shooting themselves in the foot by encouraging people to use other forms of transport such as the car or flying.

* I am not saying that the south-west should not have direct trains with Newcastle. The ideal situation would surely be to have both routes served with through trains.

I must further add that I am most impressed by the Avanti Find a Fare system as it makes it much easier for those who can be flexible to find the best priced trains for them. This must surely be a good way of filling empty seats with customers who might otherwise have driven or used the long distance buses. Here is the relevant page & I would hope that other TOC’s follow suit:>
https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/ticket-and-discounts/ways-to-save/best-fare-finder

The Rail Delivery Group - which represents the TOC’s is a joke: all talk about bringing in a fairer more user friendly system yet no action.

Envoy said:

The Rail Delivery Group - which represents the TOC’s is a joke: all talk about bringing in a fairer more user friendly system yet no action.

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Although from a quote in the BBC news article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51117885), RDG have made a [let's be honest] uncharacteristically strong statement.

The Rail Delivery Group, which represents train operators, also said any review of APD "that encourages more people to fly domestically would limit efforts to tackle the efforts to tackle the climate crisis".

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Having said that, even being a fan of rail travel, I find it quite hard to defend the typical XC fares on the rail flows that compete with Flybe...

Ianno87 said:

Having said that, even being a fan of rail travel, I find it quite hard to defend the typical XC fares on the rail flows that compete with Flybe...

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Or indeed any non-regulated IC Anytime fares. They are near enough all outrageous.

AlterEgo said:

That would take a decade and still wouldn't produce competitive journey times on many routes.

It also wouldn't produce the ability for the train to drop you off directly at the airport with a through checked bag to hundreds of destinations worldwide, and on one ticket with airline protection.

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Do those journey times also include the hassle of getting from city centre to the airport, going through security etc? That puts a large dent into the claimed superiority of air travel.

Not everyone is looking for onward connections.

sor said:

Do those journey times also include the hassle of getting from city centre to the airport, going through security etc? That puts a large dent into the claimed superiority of air travel.

Not everyone is looking for onward connections.

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And also usefulness of the journey. It might be that a direct rail journey takes 6hrs and air takes 3hrs all considered, but if the train is designed for it (I refer people to TPE for understanding this issue) that's 6hrs of work vs. 3hrs of not.

Bletchleyite said:

And also usefulness of the journey. It might be that a direct rail journey takes 6hrs and air takes 3hrs all considered, but if the train is designed for it (I refer people to TPE for understanding this issue) that's 6hrs of work vs. 3hrs of not.

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As people adapt to "Agile" working, such considerations are becoming a bigger thing.

Especially if a long trip can be used to effectively have an extended working day one day so you can (say) finish a little earlier on Friday to balance it.

The world and jobs ain't rigidly 9-5 any more...

Ianno87 said:

As people adapt to "Agile" working, such considerations are becoming a bigger thing.

Especially if a long trip can be used to effectively have an extended working day one day so you can (say) finish a little earlier on Friday to balance it.

The world and jobs ain't rigidly 9-5 any more...

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Indeed not. And "working from home" doesn't have to actually mean "working from home", it means "working from any location with Internet access".

Bletchleyite said:

Indeed not. And "working from home" doesn't have to actually mean "working from home", it means "working from any location with Internet access".

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Which for me is trains, buses, coffee shops, McDonalds, the In-Laws' sofa, random park benches,....

Ianno87 said:

Which for me is trains, buses, coffee shops, McDonalds, the In-Laws' sofa, random park benches,....

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It took me a fair while, strangely, to realise that it means you can go on holiday without taking time off if you like, provided you work during the day.

modernrail said:

Agree fully with this. A major upgrade of Cross Country is much more important than this bail out for overall regional connectivity.

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Unfortunately its not, my time as a contractor is charged at £375 to £500 a day.
For a trip from Southampton to the Central Belt of Scotland with one days work for flying my company will charge 1 Days work, Return flight, Hire Car taxis say £800 .
If I go by train it will charge 3 days work, 2 nights hotels, return rail fare, hire car/ taxis, £55 per day for meals etc. bout £2200.
Bottom line is unless rail can offer seriously reduced journey times its only ever going to obtain the leisure market.
For anything up to about 4 hours door to door Id be expected to drive and claim overtime.

sor said:

Do those journey times also include the hassle of getting from city centre to the airport, going through security etc? That puts a large dent into the claimed superiority of air travel.

Not everyone is looking for onward connections.

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Most people don’t live in city centres.
I flew to Edinburgh on business. Driving to the airport took about the same time as getting to Kings Cross would have. The destination was nearer the airport than Edinburgh city centre.

Meerkat said:

Most people don’t live in city centres.
I flew to Edinburgh on business. Driving to the airport took about the same time as getting to Kings Cross would have. The destination was nearer the airport than Edinburgh city centre.

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The latter is a niche case (though clearly true if the employer is the Royal Bank of Scotland!) Edinburgh airport is also unusually near the city centre as a result of the city being very compact.

paul1609 said:

For anything up to about 4 hours door to door Id be expected to drive and claim overtime.

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Sounds like a company I'd never work for, then. Almost all my business travel (not that there's a lot of it now, but there used to be) is by rail or air. I am NOT doing a 4 hour drive, working a full day and a 4 hour drive back. No way. Not even an option. It isn't even safe - basically, if a coach driver couldn't do it driving a coach, I shouldn't be doing it in my car either.

Even by rail, door to door about 2.5 hours is the most I would do without either a shortened day or a hotel.

Some companies simply don't respect their employees' welfare, or don't consider that a tired person does a bad job.

Bletchleyite said:

The latter is a niche case (though clearly true if the employer is the Royal Bank of Scotland!) Edinburgh airport is also unusually near the city centre as a result of the city being very compact.

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I don’t feel it is all that niche (btw it was in Edinburgh Park where there are a lot of offices).
A lot of people will find it easier to drive to the airport than a city centre station, and if the destination office is a cab ride from the nearest station, after changing to a local train out of the city centre, then a cab ride from the airport will be easier.

Up thread it was mentioned that Loganair's fairs are subsidised. They are I believe for residents of the Scotish Islands who have to register. As a regular visitor to Orkney I canncertainly state they are not susidised for visitors. It cost us 3 times the fare from LTN to ABZ to fly from ABZ to KOI.

Meerkat said:

Most people don’t live in city centres.
I flew to Edinburgh on business. Driving to the airport took about the same time as getting to Kings Cross would have. The destination was nearer the airport than Edinburgh city centre.

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BIB - seems like a rather dubious statistic.

I don't live in a city centre myself. For my semi regular cross country journey (East Anglia to Cornwall) I'm not sure the time I'd save is worth the fuss. The train services from my bit of Suffolk to Paddington are probably about as good as it's going to get, and obviously I'd have to do that to get to LHR. I could then jump onto the Heathrow Express (££££) and go through all the rigamarole of getting onto a plane, or just move down a few platforms and get onto a service at Paddington through to Bodmin/St Austell. My parents, despite their proximity to NQY, don't have a public transport option so they'd have to pick me up, but it'd still be quicker to drive to either station (bus is also an option)

I can work/stream content, I have internet access, I get the first class freebies if I get that advance ticket, no luggage limit, zero drama. Not so practical on the plane - and the train is probably cheaper even with Flybe getting the juicy PSO subsidy

sor said:

Do those journey times also include the hassle of getting from city centre to the airport, going through security etc? That puts a large dent into the claimed superiority of air travel.

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Yes. Flybe run a mass of routes which survive precisely because the railway is not a viable option. Newquay to Aberdeen is a rather extreme example, but even Exeter to Manchester - one of the shorter ones, tops out at 1h10 flying time. There's one arriving at 0750 too, so it's perfectly easy to make it into Manchester for 9am.

Not everyone is looking for onward connections.

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I never claimed they were. But a sizeable minority of their passengers are.

AlterEgo said:

Yes. Flybe run a mass of routes which survive precisely because the railway is not a viable option. Newquay to Aberdeen is a rather extreme example, but even Exeter to Manchester - one of the shorter ones, tops out at 1h10 flying time. There's one arriving at 0750 too, so it's perfectly easy to make it into Manchester for 9am.



I never claimed they were. But a sizeable minority of their passengers are.

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Worth pointing out that Exeter Airport is Flybe's HQ / training base / one of their ops bases / etc etc etc. So there may be reasons why Exeter to XYZ exist other than any opinion of the local railway (though GWR and SWR never seem to have problems filling their trains at EXD)

1h10 plus travel to and from the relevant airports plus security plus boarding time plus taxiing plus luggage pickup etc. Doesn't take much of that for the train to be back in view.

sor said:

Worth pointing out that Exeter Airport is Flybe's HQ / training base / one of their ops bases / etc etc etc. So there may be reasons why Exeter to XYZ exist other than any opinion of the local railway (though GWR and SWR never seem to have problems filling their trains at EXD)

1h10 plus travel to and from the relevant airports plus security plus boarding time plus taxiing plus luggage pickup etc. Doesn't take much of that for the train to be back in view.

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Of course Southampton Airport is something of a specific case, it’s one of my local stations, so at least the extra time to get to the airport is possibly measured in seconds, and uk check in is about half an hour or less.

Bletchleyite said:

TBH I think flight delay compensation should operate more along the lines of Delay Repay based on the fare (the headline price, not removing taxes etc) than a fixed sum. A rare occasion on which I wholly agree with Michael O'Leary!

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I don't. EU261 only kicks in if it is the airline's fault, and so the scheme should have a punitive aspect to it.

To answer the OP's question, though, the answer is no. What is causing Flybe a headache is EasyJet. Flybe build up a strong base on certain domestic routes and, once established, EasyJet come in with an Airbus and dump capacity at the most popular times, ignoring the rest of the week. As others have noted, they're about to do this on Birmingham-Scotland too.

I don't think APD cuts are the answer, though, or at least not across the board. It should be targeted at certain airports, just as Inverness is exempt from APD and Belfast International is if you're flying long-haul. Newquay would be one such airport. APD cuts aren't going to solve the real issue of EasyJet cherry picking.

The idea that rail can replace air is a fallacy, no matter how much the HS2 tubthumpers try to claim that the project will magically fix everything. Airports are as well connected as railway stations to urban transport links, so the time taken to get to the airport counts for the train. And as most affordable train tickets now are specific to one service and worthless if you miss it, I always aim to be at the station 30 mins before my train.

Ianno87 said:

Having said that, even being a fan of rail travel, I find it quite hard to defend the typical XC fares on the rail flows that compete with Flybe...

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Every time I've had cause to travel to the south west in recent years, Flybe or EasyJet and a hire car from Newquay/Exeter/Bristol has undercut XC fares by a remarkable margin. Last time, I got the train from Newcastle to Manchester- 1st class- and flew Flybe on to Newquay and still saved £50 on the XC return fare! And I didn't get to experience DVT from spending eight hours on a Voyager with no meaningful catering service.

sor said:

Worth pointing out that Exeter Airport is Flybe's HQ / training base / one of their ops bases / etc etc etc. So there may be reasons why Exeter to XYZ exist other than any opinion of the local railway (though GWR and SWR never seem to have problems filling their trains at EXD)

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Yes, like feeding connecting passengers at MAN for Virgin...or their own routes to DUS and IOM.

1h10 plus travel to and from the relevant airports plus security plus boarding time plus taxiing plus luggage pickup etc. Doesn't take much of that for the train to be back in view.

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EXT-MAN is a commuter route and not many passengers will bring bags. Straight off the plane and onto the train, can be in Manchester City centre 30-40 minutes after wheels down. 1h10m is not the "flying time" (my mistake for saying this upthread) this is brakes off to brakes on, so the idea you need to add on taxiing time is redundant.

Bear in mind Exeter's catchment is large and very rural, and not all - if many - of the passengers will live in the town, so the city centre calculation for Exeter doesn't really matter.

There is no way to arrive in Manchester at 9am from Exeter by rail. The plane prices from £49 one way, the railway about three times that in the morning thanks to XC's off peak restriction.

That's merely one example, and one of the shorter routes the run too. Not even worth doing the calculations on Newquay-Aberdeen or any of the longer ones because they're so obvious.

AlterEgo said:

There is no way to arrive in Manchester at 9am from Exeter by rail

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What is this obsession with 9am again?

Sensible businesses do not arrange meetings for 9am knowing people are travelling from miles away. TBH, sensible businesses start meetings at 10 even if guests are not from miles away, so the host can get in, set their desk up, read their emails, have a cup of tea and get the meeting room ready.

Stupid businesses need to stop it. And if you're weekly commuting (which only really happens for high-value consulting type jobs when it comes to office work, nobody is weekly commuting to work in a shop), again most sensible companies will allow you to do 11-7:30 on a Monday to avoid travelling at stupid-o-clock and arriving half asleep and ineffective.

Tetchytyke said:

To answer the OP's question, though, the answer is no. What is causing Flybe a headache is EasyJet. Flybe build up a strong base on certain domestic routes and, once established, EasyJet come in with an Airbus and dump capacity at the most popular times, ignoring the rest of the week. As others have noted, they're about to do this on Birmingham-Scotland too.

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Interesting observation/comment.

Flybe have (or had) most of the flights to the Isle of Man. Along came a request from Easyjet to run one service a day (I think from Liverpool). This caused a big discussion as the concern was would Easyjet be cherry picking and thus cause the demise of one or more Flybe flights as there were many comments that what was wanted was a regular early morning and evening roundtrips to London (any airport), Liverpool and Manchester, all year round and every day (some week-end variation) rather than flight cherry picking.

Bletchleyite said:

What is this obsession with 9am again?

Sensible businesses do not arrange meetings for 9am knowing people are travelling from miles away. TBH, sensible businesses start meetings at 10 even if guests are not from miles away, so the host can get in, set their desk up, read their emails, have a cup of tea and get the meeting room ready.

Stupid businesses need to stop it. And if you're weekly commuting (which only really happens for high-value consulting type jobs when it comes to office work, nobody is weekly commuting to work in a shop), again most sensible companies will allow you to do 11-7:30 on a Monday to avoid travelling at stupid-o-clock and arriving half asleep and ineffective.

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It's not possible to get into Manchester from Exeter before 11:30 by train. 9am was simply a ballpark time.

AlterEgo said:

It's not possible to get into Manchester from Exeter before 11:30 by train. 9am was simply a ballpark time.

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TBH if I wanted to travel from Manchester to Exeter for a full day's activity it'd be the day before.

But my point stands more generally. 9am seems to be used as a benchmark when really very few business travellers actually need to arrive by then.