In the case of Exeter-London City though, which only runs once a day, it looks like being in the City for 9am is the sole reason the flight exists. I'm slightly surprised that isn't (reliably) possible by train (first arrival at Paddington is at 8:36, so you'd have to run, though I doubt many people want to be on the train at 5:47 anyway).
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Flybe problems - did they take rail improvements into account?
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In the case of Exeter-London City though, which only runs once a day, it looks like being in the City for 9am is the sole reason the flight exists. I'm slightly surprised that isn't (reliably) possible by train (first arrival at Paddington is at 8:36, so you'd have to run, though I doubt many people want to be on the train at 5:47 anyway).
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Not just into London, but the correct side of London for some people. City Airport is a 10 minute taxi ride or a 15 minute DLR from Canary Wharf.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The 9am thing again! I don't think I have ever had a 9am meeting involving travel. They invariably start at 10, so that train's fine with time for breakfast too.
Only inconsiderate fools and selfish idiots arrange 9am meetings where they know people are travelling a long way to get there.
Weekly commuters are a bit different but I doubt any professional office based company would care if you worked 10-6:30 on a Monday to make up for the later arrival. (I find that mostly because of regular trains and long commutes people tend to leave offices bang on time in London).
jagardner1984
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But again, if you had even the vague possibility of a European High Speed Rail Timing between say Edinburgh and Bristol (both major conurbations) then you wouldn’t lose valuable time travelling the day before.
So because the Europeans have had some form of infrastructure plan for the last 50 years, they will always be that bit more productive. Flying turboprops with 30 people on them around the country because we are still trying to work how to get a small amount of high speed line in any direction past N1, makes us look increasingly backward.
It isn’t just business of course; people not stuck in transit are more likely economically active. Socially active. In that respect at least, BoJo is correct. Regional connectivity requires urgent improvement.
So because the Europeans have had some form of infrastructure plan for the last 50 years, they will always be that bit more productive. Flying turboprops with 30 people on them around the country because we are still trying to work how to get a small amount of high speed line in any direction past N1, makes us look increasingly backward.
It isn’t just business of course; people not stuck in transit are more likely economically active. Socially active. In that respect at least, BoJo is correct. Regional connectivity requires urgent improvement.
Reality check. Let’s compare to France and it’s well developed high speed rail network.
Edinburgh and Bristol are (on one list at least, opinion varies) the 5th and 9th largest cities in the U.K.
In France the 5th and 9th largest cities (on one list at least, opinion varies), are Nice and Bordeaux.
Between the former pair, around 320 miles as the crow flies, there are 5 daily flights, and an hourly train service that takes around 6 1/2 hours
Between the latter pair, around 400 miles as the crow flies, there are 3 daily flights and no direct trains. If you do want to use the train, it’s 9 hours minimum and a connection in Marseille - there’s 6 direct trains from Marseille, but the connections from Nice generally aren’t great. It’s not much longer to go via Paris, nearly twice the distance.
I could have picked Strasbourg and Lille, or Toulouse and Nantes, or any number of large city pairs that aren’t on a direct route to Paris. Regional rail connectivity in France is generally much worse than in the U.K., unless you are on a route to/from Paris, in which case it is usually quicker but less frequent.
I've had two this week... One in London, one Birmingham.
The company I work for has what I consider an unusually sensible policy on meetings, as we've people dotted all around. If you don't need an in-person meeting, don't have one, do it online. If you need one, don't start before 11am if possible, so people can take cheaper off-peak trains or avoid traffic. Despite that, twice this week I've had to head in for 9. It's unusually bad this week, but even then I'm much more fortunate than some people I know for early starts! Sadly, 9am is and remains a thing for a lot of businesses
paul1609
Established Member
It depends what sector you work in. Lots of the people I see on the plane up to Scotland aren't office workers. Lots of the meetings I go to are at that time because they consist of a UK pre-meeting before a conference call to other time zones. The real world is very different to the public and quazi public sectors.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I work in IT in the private sector.
A conference call would not take place in an office - that's sort of the point! You go into the office to meet people in the office. Conferencing people into a meeting which is mostly in a meeting room tends to me to work quite badly - it's better either everyone is on the phone (Skype, Teams etc) or nobody is.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A sensible policy. Most businesses in my experience have a similar one but unwritten. Written is even better.
Then why is the written policy not enforced? The policy should also be that if you are asked to do a 9am and it's not because a client specifically requested it, then you are entitled to decline.
There is absolutely no need for it. Some people (workaholics) like to show off about being in the office at the crack of dawn, that's all. We should not be setting up a transport network (and subsidising it) based on that. We certainly should not be using modes of transport worse for the environment to achieve it.
Romsey
Member
One thing that most posters have missed is some FlyBe services provide a major transport link to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. There are other airlines and ferries, but the high speed clipper ferries are not that reliable and are often delayed or cancelled due to high winds. Most of the Channel Islands sailings require a night in a hotel to be at the port before of after the crossing.
Blue Islands who started as an independent airline now code share with FlyBe. Before anyone grumbles further about government meddling, Aurigny are more or less owned by the Guernsey government.
Both the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands have agreements with FlyBe for moving patients to and from the mainland for more complex treatment. The contract could be changed but any other airline are going to make certain that they don't loose out financially.
Perhaps the Government were a bit too quick to promote "connectionality" without thinking through the costs.
Blue Islands who started as an independent airline now code share with FlyBe. Before anyone grumbles further about government meddling, Aurigny are more or less owned by the Guernsey government.
Both the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands have agreements with FlyBe for moving patients to and from the mainland for more complex treatment. The contract could be changed but any other airline are going to make certain that they don't loose out financially.
Perhaps the Government were a bit too quick to promote "connectionality" without thinking through the costs.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
EasyJet coming in on IOM-Belfast on a Friday/Sunday had an impact on the existing (and more regular) Eastern Airways flights, to the extent that Eastern pulled out because they could no longer make money. EasyJet can charge fares on a 150-seat A319 that operators with smaller aircraft can't match, but with such a big plane to fill EasyJet will cherry-pick the busiest times. EasyJet's IOM-Bristol also only operates Friday/Sunday.
I'm flying IOM-Liverpool with Easyjet in a couple of weeks for £15 (ironically it's because their flight time works best for me). Given APD is £13, it shows exactly what the problem is with capacity dumping. EasyJet do run daily from Feb, but if Flybe go I do wonder if they will continue to.
This all reduced connectivity to Northern Ireland (Eastern flew daily) and also saw the end of IOM-Newcastle flights, being inter-operated with the same aircraft.
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paul1609
Established Member
Nearly every customer I work for has a conferencing suite in their office. Most of the conferences will be international video. Prime Contractors like to have critical contractors at their offices in the video to show a remote customer how integrated and buddy their team is. I've experienced some cringeworthy conferences when 6 locations in the Uk are trying to conference with 3 sites in Saudi. Usually involves the IT guy in the corner trying to sort it all out.
I take from this thread that the chief reason Flybe fills a gap is the shortcomings of the XC routes. I suspect that high speed lines from Brum to Exeter and also to Southampton/Bournemouth would finish off those Flybe routes, but those lines don't exist and nor will they, given that even HS2 (Brum to Leeds) is itself so far off.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The Newquay-Heathrow link is already unravelling, as Flybe now says it will be diverted to Gatwick from March.
Cue anger from the "must go to Heathrow for the connectivity" brigade (a bit like the "everywhere must have a direct rail service to Manchester Airport").
The unspoken background is that the Heathrow slots are more valuable to Virgin/Delta for long haul than for Flybe's domestic traffic.
All part of the absorption of Flybe into a much larger group.
Airline economics are a murky business, and HMG may live to regret its intervention with Flybe.
Cue anger from the "must go to Heathrow for the connectivity" brigade (a bit like the "everywhere must have a direct rail service to Manchester Airport").
The unspoken background is that the Heathrow slots are more valuable to Virgin/Delta for long haul than for Flybe's domestic traffic.
All part of the absorption of Flybe into a much larger group.
Airline economics are a murky business, and HMG may live to regret its intervention with Flybe.
I'm not sure if an airline route that can be done by rail in 5 hours needs government subsidy, surely the money should go towards improving links to Newquay with more direct services and infrastructure improvements.
Also why does the direct service, which runs non-stop between Par and Newquay, take longer than some that have a changeover in Par and use stopping services to Newquay?
Not very many years ago (pre-low cost airlines), how extensive were these routes?
The Heathrow slots for the Newquay flights came from British Airways as part of the agreement when they bought BMI which are designed to allow competitors access to Heathrow. The slots Flybe use for Scottish routes will become theirs when they have flown them for three years which is sometime this year.
I suspect not a huge amount of their passengers given their fares are not usually rock bottom, and price focused travellers can reach most of their destinations by train, car or coach.
Sir Felix Pole
Member
To be fair, SNCF do offer 'XC' TGV services, taking advantage of the 'Jonction' lines around Paris to give through services and obviating the hassle of a Metro / RER interchange. Lille is particularly well served (although annoyingly to us Brits, increasingly from Flandres rather than Europe), with services to Rennes, Nantes, Bordeaux, Montpellier and the Riviera. Strasbourg is also served, although is has been drastically trimmed with only weekend services in winter. RENFE in Spain have also adopted the same approach, with the Barcelona to Seville AVE taking 5h 35m using the Madrid 'chord' - hardened railway enthusiasts can enjoy the traditional broad-gauge Talgo 'Torre del Oro' taking a splendid 11h 21m.
Your examples illustrate the basic hole in the French LGV network, that of a 'CF du Midi' Bordeaux - Toulouse - Montpellier line. President Macron has 'paused' it in Grayling speak, so we await developments - it is very disappointing given that Toulouse is No. 4 in my list of the largest French cities.
East and South Paris there is the LGV but as you know there are pointless trains running around North Paris on suburban lines, that take longer than transferring across Paris. They do. When they'll sort out the Massif Central though we'll never know!
Yes I know, but the point is they go via Paris (or Madrid) making use of the infrastructure that was provided for the Paris (or Madrid) flows. And many services stop at one of the Paris ‘through’ TGV stations; and all the RENFR services stop at Madrid, ie they aren’t just Cross Country services, they are also take traffic to Paris / Madrid. As has been pointed out elsewhere, it’s quicker from Newcastle to Southampton via London (changing via the tube) than it is direct via Cross Country.
frodshamfella
Established Member
There were a number of airlines such as Dan Air, Air UK, Brymon, British Midland, Jersey European ( which became Flybe in the end) and others that served the UK domestic market.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
It used to go to Gatwick and flying the Dash-8 into Heathrow does cause ATC issues I believe.
5 hours is a very long time (London to Edinburgh only takes 4h30). So that's a very strange and arbitrary time limit to choose.
Not much, they're not charging rock bottom prices (hence why EasyJet undercut them).
Neil - you really must stop with this instance that just because you dont do something in your industry , that it should apply to all others - its simply not true and it never will be no matter how many times you repeat it or make threads about it.
Train would add 2 hours maximum (If using the Heathrow express and getting a taxi in Newquay, probably more like 90 minutes compared to end to end times. Clearly 5 hours isn't fast for the distance travelled (and other services take a bit longer) but some solid investment in that line could avert the need for a flight subsidy which is dead money.
Busaholic
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Some solid investment in a Dawlish avoiding line would benefit a far greater number who never use Newquay Airport.
paul1609
Established Member
IT isn't even a proper industry.
For North Paris read South or Southwest. Everything heading for the TGV Atlantique/Bretagne has to potter round from Valenton (?) to Massy.
It says something about the Massif Central routes that IIRC Lyon to Bordeaux was quicker via Massy until TGVs started running via Montpellier-Toulouse.
Lyon - Bordeaux is definitely quicker via Paris (less than 5h incl 50 mins to connect between Gare de Lyon and Montparnasse) than via Montpellier / Toulouse, or Nevers and St Pierre de Corps, neither of which are much under 7h.
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