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EMR to leave Neville Hill?

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Failed Unit

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I guess it comes down to a couple of questions.

1. Does the operator want to run it?
2. Will the ORR let them.

in answer to 2. Considering what they have agreed recently. (TPEs service extension to Edinburgh) I cant see why not. Yes LNER have the main market but people would be happy to take the slower route if it costs less. Sheffield and Derby I suspect would not object to a 2nd fast service.

Pathing I guess is a challenge. The 222s were ordered originally for an hourly London - Leeds (the 9 car ones) but I don’t think they ever found a suitable all day path.

not commenting on if it is a good / bad thing but I see no reason why EMR would not want to continue with it if it makes them money. But off-peak is probably better to do that. The current times are not good for business passengers.
 
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talltim

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Any suggestions for a suitably sized plot of railway land along the Sheaf valley?
There were plenty, rail connected too, but they’ve all been built on, fairly recently in most cases too
 

Roast Veg

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I believe this would be true, as the trains from St Pancras to Leeds are slower than the King's Cross ones, and also it was to enable HSTs to return there to receive maintenance.

As mentioned, it appears that the Leeds services are a franchise obligation. It also provides a handy direct service from Leicester, so I will personally be very sad to see it go - the alternative is a very cramped XC service and some awful changes at Sheffield.

Must admit when I go past the remains of Healy Mills Yard near Wakefield I do find myself thinking along the lines of there being a huge plot of railway owned land, which is well connected and not very far from Leeds. Could be the perfect place for a large new depot...
The trouble with Healy Mills is twofold - road access and flooding. Neither Horbury nor Ossett have the infrastructure to support a lot of new traffic.
 

DarloRich

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Must admit when I go past the remains of Healy Mills Yard near Wakefield I do find myself thinking along the lines of there being a huge plot of railway owned land, which is well connected and not very far from Leeds. Could be the perfect place for a large new depot...

it has been looked at for all kinds of things.The problem is road access is dodgy and it floods.

I take it if EMR leave Neville Hill they will also stop St Pancras to Leeds through service given these trains are effectively a positioning move?

or change the times to be more operationally convenient.
 

Meerkat

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Must admit when I go past the remains of Healy Mills Yard near Wakefield I do find myself thinking along the lines of there being a huge plot of railway owned land, which is well connected and not very far from Leeds. Could be the perfect place for a large new depot...

From google it looks like there is loads of space to the south of the line opposite Neville Hill, either the empty land or the overgrown yard (surely not much need for a freight yard there with a shortage of paths through Leeds). Easier access to the motorway without going through residential areas too.

Any suggestions for a suitably sized plot of railway land along the Sheaf valley?

From google (so images might be out of date) there is a large council depot to the East of the line three quarters of a mile south of the station on Olive Grove Road. So not an empty site but the council might be willing to move to get a rail depot there.
 

DarloRich

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From google it looks like there is loads of space to the south of the line opposite Neville Hill, either the empty land or the overgrown yard (surely not much need for a freight yard there with a shortage of paths through Leeds). Easier access to the motorway without going through residential areas too.

that could well be housing in no time.
 

swt_passenger

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I think not as elsewhere on the forums they were mentioned in discussion about EMRs future timetable consultation which showed them as still in, IIRC, as DfT had included them in the spec. Have a look for that thread for more chat about that.
What was discussed in the consultation thread was more to do with the point that Leeds wasn’t in the original DfT specification, but it did appear on the route map. Someone then drew out via email to EMR that some sort of service was being retained.

There is however still NO mention of an actual Leeds service in the text of the consultation document, despite the level of detail given for every other station...
 
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WesternLancer

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What was discussed in the consultation thread was more to do with the point that Leeds wasn’t in the original DfT specification, but it did appear on the route map. Someone then drew out via email to EMR that some sort of service was being retained.

There is however still NO mention of an actual Leeds service in the text of the consultation document, despite the level of detail given for every other station...
Yes, so I'm beginning to think in fact it will be dropped in time, and the twitter reply at that time was probably from a customer service staff member who knew about the situation now but probably would not have had an idea about the post dec 2020 times...
 

greatvoyager

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As mentioned, it appears that the Leeds services are a franchise obligation. It also provides a handy direct service from Leicester, so I will personally be very sad to see it go - the alternative is a very cramped XC service and some awful changes at Sheffield.


The trouble with Healy Mills is twofold - road access and flooding. Neither Horbury nor Ossett have the infrastructure to support a lot of new traffic.
Unless they keep the Leeds service as an alternative if there are problems on the ECML?
 

BucksBones

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Or for ORCATS raiding purposes...


Can they make enough money to make it viable just from ORCATS? I shouldn't imagine it's massively lucrative otherwise, as it stands; it's been quiet whenever I've used it. It's a nice, cheap, quiet alternative for those in the know, and presumably that has never bothered EMT / EMR because it is essentially just a passenger-carrying positioning move.

If they really did want to run it as a profitable venture they'd have to target London - Leeds passengers by increasing the frequency and changing the pricing structure so it is always cheap ( as opposed to just being cheap because no one has bought any tickets) and, obviously, doing some serious marketing. They won't tempt anyone away from the ECML otherwise as it takes so much longer.
 

WesternLancer

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Can they make enough money to make it viable just from ORCATS? I shouldn't imagine it's massively lucrative otherwise, as it stands; it's been quiet whenever I've used it. It's a nice, cheap, quiet alternative for those in the know, and presumably that has never bothered EMT / EMR because it is essentially just a passenger-carrying positioning move.

If they really did want to run it as a profitable venture they'd have to target London - Leeds passengers by increasing the frequency and changing the pricing structure so it is always cheap ( as opposed to just being cheap because no one has bought any tickets) and, obviously, doing some serious marketing. They won't tempt anyone away from the ECML otherwise as it takes so much longer.
agreed in general - but doesn't ORCATS allocate a share of revenue between 2 points if you run between those points from the revenue from any permitted tickets, based on the share of trains you provide? So you would get some money from such Leeds London even if no one traveled at all...cheaper tickets (Advance) is not orcats revenue allocated, TOC gets 100% of the revenue from them because by definition you must use the service booked on - which is the whole reason to provide such inflexible tickets - you can make more money from an Advance sold for less than for a higher priced flexible ticket.
 

Failed Unit

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Remember the Derby - Leeds flow. MML did attempt to run it but they couldnt get the paths. GNER even struggled to 2tph to Leeds at the time. But at the time GNER got the off-peak paths and the 222s were split up.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The Northern Leeds to Nottingham service is essentially the stump of the proposed MML hourly service, though apart from the odd journey for route knowledge retention it runs via Erewash rather than Derby.
 

221129

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I would suggest that Neville Hill is better positioned than Laira as diagrams start/end at NL, which they don’t at Laira.
Sort of. The daily ones do but the weekly ones don't.

The same could also be said for EC where they haven't long pulled out of.
 

ainsworth74

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The trouble with Healy Mills is twofold - road access and flooding. Neither Horbury nor Ossett have the infrastructure to support a lot of new traffic.

it has been looked at for all kinds of things.The problem is road access is dodgy and it floods.

Look let's not be bringing facts into the discussion that will make it harder to come up with crackpot schemes! :lol:

From google it looks like there is loads of space to the south of the line opposite Neville Hill, either the empty land or the overgrown yard (surely not much need for a freight yard there with a shortage of paths through Leeds). Easier access to the motorway without going through residential areas too.

Though that doesn't solve the problem of Neville Hill just being poorly located. Having you main depot on the very congested two track approach to the east side of Leeds is far from ideal and one which would be solved by a depot on the west side of Leeds.

agreed in general - but doesn't ORCATS allocate a share of revenue between 2 points if you run between those points from the revenue from any permitted tickets, based on the share of trains you provide? So you would get some money from such Leeds London even if no one traveled at all

Ish. ORCATS is clever than that though. It does take account of things like journey time, frequency of service as well as facilities available. So for a Leeds to London flexible single EMR will probably get some revenue from it but considering that LNER provide a faster journey and a considerably more frequent service they will get the absolute lions share of any such ticket sold. Probably not 100% but I bet it's not far off (excluding any reduction for commission).
 

Meerkat

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Though that doesn't solve the problem of Neville Hill just being poorly located. Having you main depot on the very congested two track approach to the east side of Leeds is far from ideal and one which would be solved by a depot on the west side of Leeds.
Isn’t it easier on the East side as trains can go into Leeds then carry on through rather than switching ends? And it avoids going through all the junctions on the west side of Leeds.
Of course I think they should four track the East side of Leeds immediately!!
 

WesternLancer

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Look let's not be bringing facts into the discussion that will make it harder to come up with crackpot schemes! :lol:



Though that doesn't solve the problem of Neville Hill just being poorly located. Having you main depot on the very congested two track approach to the east side of Leeds is far from ideal and one which would be solved by a depot on the west side of Leeds.



Ish. ORCATS is clever than that though. It does take account of things like journey time, frequency of service as well as facilities available. So for a Leeds to London flexible single EMR will probably get some revenue from it but considering that LNER provide a faster journey and a considerably more frequent service they will get the absolute lions share of any such ticket sold. Probably not 100% but I bet it's not far off (excluding any reduction for commission).
Thanks for added info!
 

61653 HTAFC

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Isn’t it easier on the East side as trains can go into Leeds then carry on through rather than switching ends? And it avoids going through all the junctions on the west side of Leeds.
Of course I think they should four track the East side of Leeds immediately!!
Though once you move out of the immediate vicinity of the station and approaches, you're back to the situation of just a two-track railway giving access to the station itself, and land close to the city centre is at a premium. There's no suitable sites out towards Morley (all built on or not level) and the same goes for all routes with the possible exception of the Woodlesford lines- and anything coming from there can only easily access the higher numbered platforms.

There is a bit of land near the Holbeck viaduct and next to the M621 at the bottom of Beeston that would be suitable for a new depot... just a bit of demolition required! <D:lol:
 
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