TfGM ENCTS pass £10 train and tram surcharge.

Xenophon PCDGS · 17 Jan 2020

We were visiting the Stockport TfGM Travelshop yesterday to obtain some leaflets and there was a long queue of elderly holders of TfGM-issued English National Concessionary Travel Scheme passes who were paying a new £10 annual train and tram surcharge to be entered on the chip on their cards. I understand the surcharge comes into operation on 1st February 2020 and will be an annual surcharge should the holders of those passes require train and tram travel within the TfGM borders.

Although after our recent locationary move, we still reside exterior to those TfGM areas, I do remember the matter of both free train and tram travel being available to the holders of such TfGM-issued ENCTS passes in the TfGM areas being mentioned on many threads in the past on this website as being wrong. So I suppose that particular matter will now cease to be the bone of contention it once was on this website.

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LowLevel · 17 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
We were visiting the Stockport TfGM Travelshop yesterday to obtain some leaflets and there was a long queue of elderly holders of TfGM-issued ENCTS passes who were paying a new £10 annual train and tram surcharge to be entered on the chip on their cards. I understand the surcharge comes into operation on 1st February 2020 and will be an annual surcharge should the holders of those passes require train and tram travel within the TfGM borders.

Although after our recent locationary move, we still reside exterior to those TfGM areas, I do remember the matter of both free train and tram travel being available to the holders of such TfGM-issued ENCTS passes in the TfGM areas being mentioned on many threads in the past on this website as being wrong. So I suppose that particular matter will now cease to be the bone of contention it once was on this website.

I'm sure the £10 per person will go a long way to making sure the public transport providers involved are fully compensated for the costs of being forced to participate in the scheme - not!

47444 · 17 Jan 2020

Whether public transport operators are sufficiently compensated is a matter for negotiation between TfGM and the operators (though of course, in the case of Metrolink, they are compensating themselves!).

Charging £10 for the rail/tram facility is about helping TfGM balance their books

Mathew S · 17 Jan 2020

The £10 surcharge is - and TfGM/GMCA have been perfectly open about this, whether people agree with the idea or not - to pay for the Our Pass scheme which offers free bus travel and half price tram travel for 16 - 18 year olds who live and travel within Greater Manchester.

As LowLevel says, without it TfGMs books don't balance.

Any surplus will help them fund their defense against the inevitable anti-franchising legal action from bus operators.

mikeg · 17 Jan 2020

Also the fact that the £10 surcharge will mean fewer twirlies on trains, might stick to the bus or not travel, so could help in that sense as not everyone who had the pass is going to pay ten quid for the privilege.

To be honest, still pretty good value, I'd not be complaining. There's just the senior and disabled railcard where I live - ENCTS is only on buses.
Also means that some disabled have to pay full price for train tickets. I have a friend who is ENCTS eligible but not disabled railcard eligible. Presume the tenner fee also applies to disabled ENCTS holders and not just old people?

Mathew S · 17 Jan 2020

mikeg said:
Also the fact that the £10 surcharge will mean fewer twirlies on trains, might stick to the bus or not travel, so could help in that sense as not everyone who had the pass is going to pay ten quid for the privilege.

To be honest, still pretty good value, I'd not be complaining. There's just the senior and disabled railcard where I live - ENCTS is only on buses.
Also means that some disabled have to pay full price for train tickets. I have a friend who is ENCTS eligible but not disabled railcard eligible. Presume the tenner fee also applies to disabled ENCTS holders and not just old people?

Twirlies?

And no, it's just old people. Anyone who gets a travel pass because they're disabled won't have to pay.

mikeg · 17 Jan 2020

Sorry. Bit of transport slang for concessionary pass holder. Comes from the peak restrictions on buses in most areas. They turn up twirly ('too early')

AM9 · 17 Jan 2020

LowLevel said:
I'm sure the £10 per person will go a long way to making sure the public transport providers involved are fully compensated for the costs of being forced to participate in the scheme - not!

They'll probably get nothing worse than as bus operators do from ENCTS.

duncanp · 17 Jan 2020

£10 for a year's unlimited travel on trains and trams in Greater Manchester seems like a bargain to me.

I have an ENCTS disabled persons bus pass issued in the West Midlands. This is valid on local trains and trams as well, but only after 09:30 Mondays - Fridays, and all day at weekends.

If you want to travel on the bus before 09:30, you can pay a concessionary fare of £1 as opposed to the full fare of £2.40. You can also pay a supplement of £33 per month if you need to travel regularly before 09:30 Mondays - Fridays.

I am perfectly happy with these arrangements, and I realise that making travel free at all times would most likely entail a fares increase for everyone else, which is unfair.

Xenophon PCDGS · 17 Jan 2020

mikeg said:
Sorry. Bit of transport slang for concessionary pass holder. Comes from the peak restrictions on buses in most areas. They turn up twirly ('too early')

Everyone that I know with an ENCTS entitlement are well aware of the after-0930 starting time on Monday to Friday that applies to ENCTS card use. I think that we see an urban myth rearing its ugly head.

mikeg · 17 Jan 2020

Quite possibly but it's just a slang term and that is the supposed etymology.

43096 · 17 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
We were visiting the Stockport TfGM Travelshop yesterday to obtain some leaflets and there was a long queue of elderly holders of TfGM-issued ENCTS passes who were paying a new £10 annual train and tram surcharge to be entered on the chip on their cards. I understand the surcharge comes into operation on 1st February 2020 and will be an annual surcharge should the holders of those passes require train and tram travel within the TfGM borders.

Although after our recent locationary move, we still reside exterior to those TfGM areas, I do remember the matter of both free train and tram travel being available to the holders of such TfGM-issued ENCTS passes in the TfGM areas being mentioned on many threads in the past on this website as being wrong. So I suppose that particular matter will now cease to be the bone of contention it once was on this website.

In accordance with forum rules, you should be explaining the acronyms. I have no idea what ENCTS is - it looks like a misprint of ETCS.

Scott1 · 17 Jan 2020

43096 said:
In accordance with forum rules, you should be explaining the acronyms. I have no idea what ENCTS is - it looks like a misprint of ETCS.

English National Concessionary Travel Scheme.

43096 · 17 Jan 2020

Scott1 said:
English National Concessionary Travel Scheme.

Thanks.

Greybeard33 · 17 Jan 2020

duncanp said:
£10 for a year's unlimited travel on trains and trams in Greater Manchester seems like a bargain to me.

I have an ENCTS disabled persons bus pass issued in the West Midlands. This is valid on local trains and trams as well, but only after 09:30 Mondays - Fridays, and all day at weekends.

If you want to travel on the bus before 09:30, you can pay a concessionary fare of £1 as opposed to the full fare of £2.40. You can also pay a supplement of £33 per month if you need to travel regularly before 09:30 Mondays - Fridays.

I am perfectly happy with these arrangements, and I realise that making travel free at all times would most likely entail a fares increase for everyone else, which is unfair.

For the avoidance of doubt, a TfGM ENCTS pass only gives free travel, within the TfGM boundary, between 09:30 and midnight Mon - Fri and all day at weekends. A disabled persons pass also allows concessionary fares before 09:30, but pensioners must pay full fare before 09:30 on buses, trams and trains, whether or not they have paid the £10 fee.

SeanG · 17 Jan 2020

I think that it's great value and I know a number of pass holders of a certain generation who also think this and are more than willing to pay, despite what the local papers might say.
After all, it's only the price of a couple of trips to Manchester on the train and those living across the border in Lancashire don't get that privilege

Ianno87 · 17 Jan 2020

SeanG said:
I think that it's great value and I know a number of pass holders of a certain generation who also think this and are more than willing to pay, despite what the local papers might say.
After all, it's only the price of a couple of trips to Manchester on the train and those living across the border in Lancashire don't get that privilege

Yep, my Mum has absolutely no issue with the £10 charge as it's still fantastic value.

jkkne · 17 Jan 2020

It’s brilliant value when you consider Nexus charge £12 for a Gold Card equivalent for the Tyne and Wear Metro (and doesn’t include the ferry)

6Gman · 17 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Everyone that I know with an ENCTS entitlement are well aware of the after-0930 starting time on Monday to Friday that applies to ENCTS card use. I think that we see an urban myth rearing its ugly head.

I think the point is that some try to blag themselves onto a 0929 bus, enquiring "am I too early?" in an innocent voice.

Starmill · 17 Jan 2020

The problem is not by any means that people of state pension age got the service for free. Bring it on, I say.

The problem was many people who weren't of state pension age had to pay 100% fare rises, and more than that if travelling at the newly restricted afternoon times, and the justification was that the subsidy needed to be reduced. If the subsidy needs to be reduced that you've doubled Off Peak Day Return fares in 3 years then I think you have long passed the point at which free concessionary travel can be afforded, but TfGM maintained it.

What ought to happen is the government should restore the subsidy and cut the fares back to 2013 levels plus CPI - and re-write the ludicrous time restriction to peak flow, like it is nearly everywhere else, and not restricted before 0630. Of course there's absolutely no way that the Prime Minister is interested in more subsidy for local rail, so it will continue to be a waste of money and a nice gravy train for those of state pension age.

Why is it unreasonable to ask people of state pension age to pay 50% of the proper fare, if that means the fares go up less for everyone? This arrangement doesn't seem to unduly stymie the ability of retired people to travel in West Yorkshire, for example.

Facing Back · 18 Jan 2020

Ianno87 said:
Yep, my Mum has absolutely no issue with the £10 charge as it's still fantastic value.

My mum has no problem with the £10 either. She's slightly narked that it was poorly advertised and that the option to pay online seems to be quite clunky. If she buys online she has to go into a store or a tram stop and validate it - either requires a trip into Manchester central which doesn't suit where she lives - but that's quite a niche problem.

Xenophon PCDGS · 18 Jan 2020

43096 said:
In accordance with forum rules, you should be explaining the acronyms. I have no idea what ENCTS is - it looks like a misprint of ETCS.

Unlike you, I have no idea what ETCS refers to. Would it have anything to do with the subject of this thread? ENCTS has been a nationally recognised term in England since the introduction of the system and has been used as such on this website on a number of different threads very many times since then.

AM9 · 18 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Unlike you, I have no idea what ETCS refers to. Would it have anything to do with the subject of this thread? ENCTS has been a nationally recognised term in England since the introduction of the system and has been used as such on this website on a number of different threads very many times since then.

Although ETCS has been discussed on countless threads here, for those that it has passed by, Google is your friend. Just enter 'etcs' into the search box and it appears as the first entry, - you don't even have to scroll down the screen.

Xenophon PCDGS · 18 Jan 2020

AM9 said:
Although ETCS has been discussed on countless threads here, for those that it has passed by, Google is your friend. Just enter 'etcs' into the search box and it appears as the first entry, - you don't even have to scroll down the screen.

Whilst I do appreciate your information above, I must ask whatever has the European Train Control System to do with the subject of this thread, that solely concerns itself with a £10 surcharge added by TfGM to the holders of TfGM-issued ENCTS passes who will still wish to have both tram and train facility in addition to the bus travel requirements. Surely TfGM have not made any sort of reference to the ETCS requirement in deciding to impose this new surcharge, but if they have, I will most certainly be pleased to hear about it.

bearhugger · 18 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Everyone that I know with an ENCTS entitlement are well aware of the after-0930 starting time on Monday to Friday that applies to ENCTS card use. I think that we see an urban myth rearing its ugly head.

As an ex bus driver, I can assure you it's not an urban myth! They are well aware of the time restriction, as you say, but try it on anyway. There was even the occassional one who was still working as they admitted that if they got the next bus after the time restriction they would be late for work!

Xenophon PCDGS · 18 Jan 2020

bearhugger said:
As an ex bus driver, I can assure you it's not an urban myth! They are well aware of the time restriction, as you say, but try it on anyway. There was even the occassional one who was still working as they admitted that if they got the next bus after the time restriction they would be late for work!

As a holder of such a pass, I have nothing but contempt for those pass users who deliberately do as you have described and am of the opinion they deserve all that can be used against them for attempted fraudulent use of their cards. Perhaps if the card issuer was notified of such matters (name on card being taken by the bus driver and passed on to his company management who would then pass such information to the card issuer), some suitable strictures could then be applied by the issuer of the card.

Starmill · 18 Jan 2020

ETCS is the initialism for European Train Control System. This is the train-borne element of ERTMS, or European Rail Traffic Management System. Further discussion of this may be off topic in this thread.

duncanp · 18 Jan 2020

As a holder of such a pass, I have nothing but contempt for those pass users who deliberately do as you have described and am of the opinion they deserve all that can be used against them for attempted fraudulent use of their cards.

I am also the holder of such a pass, and I absolutely agree 100% with the above sentiment.

Where bus services are infrequent, particularly in rural areas, the local authority has the power to designate a particular bus journey as off peak even if it is before 09:30, to avoid an unduly long wait. (eg I had a relative who used to live in Poole, Dorset, and the bus was once per hour at 24 minutes past the hour. There was a consistent problem with "twirlies" trying to get on the 09:24 bus (especially when it ran late and arrived after 09:30), and it let to some friction between them and the bus drivers. The matter was resolved by designating this journey as off peak, which enabled ENCTS pass holders to use it without paying)

Xenophon PCDGS · 18 Jan 2020

duncanp said:
There was a consistent problem with "twirlies" trying to get on the 09:24 bus (especially when it ran late and arrived after 09:30)

Now that is something to consider. If a bus arrives at a stop after 0930 on Monday to Friday, when the pass falls into the correct time usage period as such, despite any timetabled information, I ask if those card holders entitled to board as they are not doing so prior to the 0930 embargo time.

Can anyone with knowledge of card restriction use with knowledge of how the law would view such a matter, please feel they can make comment on that point.

Xenophon PCDGS · 18 Jan 2020

Starmill said:
ETCS is the initialism for European Train Control System. This is the train-borne element of ERTMS, or European Rail Traffic Management System. Further discussion of this may be off topic in this thread.

Exactly so, which made me wonder why someone thought to mention it on a TfGM £10 pass surcharge thread that is only applicable in their area.

TfGM ENCTS pass £10 train and tram surcharge.

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