New trains for East Midlands Franchise

cactustwirly · 12 Jan 2020

RealTrains07 said:
Even though GTR/Southern still have yet to make a statement saying the 171s are going to EMR and what they will be replaced with?

They don't need to, it isn't really their problem
The leases of the 171s transfers over to EMR at the end of the GTR franchise in 2022, it's up to the DfT and future prospective bidders to come up with a solution

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greatvoyager · 12 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Have you seen the GC Twitter? Cancellations are common.

It appears though that the majority of complaints made about 180s are the HT ones that will be operated by EMR. Then again, it looks like HT 180s fail much more dramatically than the GC units.

londonmidland · 12 Jan 2020

greatvoyager said:
It appears though that the majority of complaints made about 180s are the HT ones that will be operated by EMR. Then again, it looks like HT 180s fail much more dramatically than the GC units.

It could have just be down to poor/reduced maintenance to try and save a bit of money? HT knew they had new trains on the way so perhaps they lost interest in keeping the 180s properly maintained.

I don’t want to go off topic or start a whole new thread about it but I reckon with proper care, EMR will manage fine with the 180s.

D365 · 12 Jan 2020

londonmidland said:
It could have just be down to poor/reduced maintenance to try and save a bit of money? HT knew they had new trains on the way so perhaps they lost interest in keeping the 180s properly maintained.

Surely this is an urban “myth”...

greatvoyager · 12 Jan 2020

londonmidland said:
It could have just be down to poor/reduced maintenance to try and save a bit of money? HT knew they had new trains on the way so perhaps they lost interest in keeping the 180s properly maintained.

I don’t want to go off topic or start a whole new thread about it but I reckon with proper care, EMR will manage fine with the 180s.

Maybe, but from what I've heard, the 180s are only temporary on EMR too.

RealTrains07 · 12 Jan 2020

greatvoyager said:
Maybe, but from what I've heard, the 180s are only temporary on EMR too.

They and the 222s will go once the 804s start running

OTRail · 13 Jan 2020

londonmidland said:
It could have just be down to poor/reduced maintenance to try and save a bit of money? HT knew they had new trains on the way so perhaps they lost interest in keeping the 180s properly maintained.

I don’t want to go off topic or start a whole new thread about it but I reckon with proper care, EMR will manage fine with the 180s.

The main reason was because the HT fleet used to be maintained at Old Oak Common alongside the GWR fleet, but the GWR fleet then transferred to GC and OOC closed, so the HT units then transferred to Crofton for maintenance by Bombardier. Since then reliability’s been poor.

Merle Haggard · 13 Jan 2020

There's a small poster on Corby station (presumably elsewhere as well) which gives timelines for the changes to stock. This shows the 180s (it uses that name) as being introduced in what looks like May 2020.
This suggests their introduction will coincide with a timetable change and perhaps infers that it will not be a straight replacement of the ex GC sets on the same diagrams (if it were, why wait 'til TT change?) but that they will be on more intensive diagrams.

greatvoyager · 13 Jan 2020

OTRail said:
The main reason was because the HT fleet used to be maintained at Old Oak Common alongside the GWR fleet, but the GWR fleet then transferred to GC and OOC closed, so the HT units then transferred to Crofton for maintenance by Bombardier. Since then reliability’s been poor.

Maybe EMR will be able to get them to work.

CeeJ · 13 Jan 2020

ohgoditsjames said:
How do they plan on improving their reliability?

Nothing extraordinary, though from what I recall they're going to be on relatively easy diagrams.

RealTrains07 · 13 Jan 2020

Merle Haggard said:
There's a small poster on Corby station (presumably elsewhere as well) which gives timelines for the changes to stock. This shows the 180s (it uses that name) as being introduced in what looks like May 2020.
This suggests their introduction will coincide with a timetable change and perhaps infers that it will not be a straight replacement of the ex GC sets on the same diagrams (if it were, why wait 'til TT change?) but that they will be on more intensive diagrams.

View attachment 72692

remind me will the if the GC HSTs are being replaced by the 180s how are EMR going to remove the rest of the HSTs they have?

D365 · 13 Jan 2020

RealTrains07 said:
remind me will the if the GC HSTs are being replaced by the 180s how are EMR going to remove the rest of the HSTs they have?

All of EMR's 125mph diesels will be replaced by the Class 804s. The ex-LNER HSTs and the Class 180s are being used as an interim measure.

RealTrains07 · 14 Jan 2020

D365 said:
All of EMR's 125mph diesels will be replaced by the Class 804s. The ex-LNER HSTs and the Class 180s are being used as an interim measure.

Yes but that doesn’t answer my question what will replace the HSTs?? Considering they are meant to be going this year?

InTheEastMids · 14 Jan 2020

RealTrains07 said:
Yes but that doesn’t answer my question what will replace the HSTs?? Considering they are meant to be going this year?

The basic idea is that post Dec-2020, the electrics will be running to Corby, reducing demand from Kettering and points South. Secondly the timetable recast will improve utilisation. The EMR intercity fleet requirement will therefore be much smaller and until the new trains turn up, the IC timetable will need only the 27* 222s and 4*180s.

It's been done to death in various threads whether this enough trains and seats but it seems like around 20 formations will be required for the new timetable, and if so on a normal weekday it might look something like:
6* 7-car 222
7 * 9/10-car 222 or 180 pairs
7 * 4/5-car 222 or 180
4 * 222 or 180 maintenance/spare

Bletchleyite · 14 Jan 2020

InTheEastMids said:
Secondly the timetable recast will improve utilisation

Ha ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha.

Haven't Abellio tried something like this somewhere else before?

Domh245 · 14 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Ha ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha.

Haven't Abellio tried something like this somewhere else before?

EMR has got considerably more scope for improving utilisation with a timetable recast than other TOCs (the infamous 70 minute turnarounds at St Pancras!) - It will probably still be very tight though

InTheEastMids · 14 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Ha ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha.

Haven't Abellio tried something like this somewhere else before?

to be fair to Abellio, it is poor today, the 70min layover of an HST at St Pancras being the most obvious example.

However, the reported trials of a 2+4 HST suggest to me a little anxiety that this plan may not survive contact with reality.

Bletchleyite · 14 Jan 2020

Domh245 said:
EMR has got considerably more scope for improving utilisation with a timetable recast than other TOCs (the infamous 70 minute turnarounds at St Pancras!) - It will probably still be very tight though

It depends how tight they make it. 70 minutes probably is excessive (though if it's 70 minutes at that end and 10 at the other it might well not be far off a sensible mark?) - but knowing what they did with LNR it wouldn't surprise me if they dropped it to 10 minutes at each end and watched the service fall to bits like LNR.

yorkie · 14 Jan 2020

Please create a new thread to discuss the timetable (or use an existing thread if there is one)

This thread is to discuss the new trains

Thanks

Aictos · 14 Jan 2020

I’m looking forward to the new trains, it will be interesting to see how Derby copes with the 180s tho.

whhistle · 14 Jan 2020

It's been said many times in the past what the plan is for EMR.
Not sure why people seem to think anything different, or this desperation to keep 158s.

Anglia 156 (156/9) are temporary to help get rid of 153s.

170s will displace 158s, which will displace 156s, which will displace more 153s.

180s are to replace the exGC HSTs.

LNER HSTs replace the rest of the HST fleet.

Both 180s and LNER HSTs will be replaced by the new 804s, together with the 222s.

All 15x units will be replaced by 170s.

Been said many times, the aim is for only 3 types of stock - 804s, 170s and 360s. That's it.

I should think the hydrogen trial is just a token to appease the government.

WesternLancer · 17 Jan 2020

Of course some of this presumes the Corby electrification date to go live does not slip. Presumably it's currently on schedule.

duffield · 17 Jan 2020

WesternLancer said:
Of course some of this presumes the Corby electrification date to go live does not slip. Presumably it's currently on schedule.

All the official websites I can find which have been updated recently are still saying 2020. However, I would make a modest wager on there being at least some slippage...

S-Bahn · 17 Jan 2020

whhistle said:
Been said many times, the aim is for only 3 types of stock - 804s, 170s and 360s. That's it.

Nice.

Will the 804's be able to run as 10 car formations on the whole Intercity route and the 360's as 8 car if required?

Nym · 17 Jan 2020

360s can run as 12 car and yes.

The Ham · 18 Jan 2020

Nym said:
360s can run as 12 car and yes.

It's why the 804's will have 24m long coaches, so that they could fit as a pair of units at all the platforms.

Aictos · 18 Jan 2020

Nym said:
360s can run as 12 car and yes.

Did they confirm it be 12 cars all day, just asking because during peak times I can see 12 cars being needed but off peak would they just run 8 cars?

Failed Unit · 18 Jan 2020

Aictos said:
Did they confirm it be 12 cars all day, just asking because during peak times I can see 12 cars being needed but off peak would they just run 8 cars?

At the beginning the have said 12 cars all day as dropping off coaches is a challenge. We will see.

Aictos · 18 Jan 2020

Failed Unit said:
At the beginning the have said 12 cars all day as dropping off coaches is a challenge. We will see.

I can’t see how dropping off 4 coaches is difficult seeing as NSE TOCs do it day and day out.

Only reason I ask is because while it’s probably easier to run the diagrams as 12 cars all day, are the trains going to be that busy off peak to warrant 12 cars?

Bearing in mind atm the Corbys use 5 car Class 222s so a 8 car Class 360 formation is still a 75% increase of seating capacity.

Failed Unit · 18 Jan 2020

Aictos said:
I can’t see how dropping off 4 coaches is difficult seeing as NSE TOCs do it day and day out.

Only reason I ask is because while it’s probably easier to run the diagrams as 12 cars all day, are the trains going to be that busy off peak to warrant 12 cars?

Bearing in mind atm the Corbys use 5 car Class 222s so a 8 car Class 360 formation is still a 75% increase of seating capacity.

I guess getting the dropped unit out the way. Not sure a Corby if it was to go ECS somewhere. On Great Northern in the end they didn’t split the 313s much. The off-peak didn’t need 6, the sidings were at Hertford / Welwyn but they needed more drivers to do it.

speculation only but they may struggle with paths / drivers to do such a split at the beginning.

New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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