I'm not the one saying the routes should be split...
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Ways to improve the First Glasgow Network
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I'm not the one saying the routes should be split...
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tbtc
Veteran Member
I'm not debating the other suggestions but splitting the 3 at Silverburn seems pretty sensible to me - given how stupidly long the round trip is - it's an hour and a half from Partick to Govan - most snails could crawl through the Clyde tunnel faster than that from Partick to Govan - are there really that many people travelling from one side of Silverburn to the other?
Pollock into the city centre is a lot faster with the X8, so how many people would actually be disadvantaged by splitting the 3?
(in fact, if Silverburn - Govan becomes a stand alone service, it could be run with older vehicles as it obviously wouldn't serve the city centre, which would be quite advantageous when First are trying to accommodate the emission requirements)
Or at least tag bits of the 3 onto shorter routes like the 7 or the 75 to try to make it more reliable - a ten minute frequency sounds great but when there are best part of thirty buses taking almost five hours for the end to end journey - it's a receipe for disaster at the moment
cnjb8
Established Member
Yes they did. They also cut down quite a few buses which is good for Firsts aging fleet. Plymouth did something similar too.
Apologies I quoted the wrong post was meant to quote the post from Paul.
There used to be a service that ran from Govan to Pollok Centre(now Silverburn) as the 23A although this was back when the Ailsas were still plentiful. I'm guessing it got pulled due to lack of use.
I remember that tbh. Didn't help that Pollok Centre was nowhere near the draw to people that Silverburn is. I also remember the 22 and 53 from there to Braehead they've tried using different routes too
I've used the 3 from Shawlands to Cardonald before but tbh it's fairly rare that people use it from one side to the other. There's times where 3 3s towards either terminus turn up at Silverburn together even off peak from experience and then at peaks it just gets even worse. Wouldn't add anything to the 7 or 75 tbh because the reliability of each of them isn't great either. It's a hard thing to get right tbh and the only other thing I can think of is trying new routes by combining parts of them although I don't see that happening
Glasgowbusguy
On Moderation
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- 21 Feb 2019
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- 419
For me
Replace 60A with new service every 30 mins
BBS - milingavie numbered 62
Split the 38s
So 38e and 38b merged to becomes service 40
Bbs to bargeggdie via barlanark and carntyne square every 20 mins
38c renumbered 36 running from commerce st every 20 mins
38/A to remain unchanged except 38A only to thornlie bank both on a 10 min frequency
Or 5 min combined
New service 51/A easterhouse terminus , fort , wellhouse , edinburgh rd (A to go via queenslie instead only before 10am and between 4pm and 6pm) cranhill edinburgh rd (replaces axed 38E) Todd st , duke st, union st ,commerce street
Reintroduce 89/90 as inner outer running from breahead
New service 25 silverburn , pollok , govan , qeuh, braehead (hourly)
X8 to run all day and tie in with new services 40 and 62 at bbs (alternating buses from each to become x8s)
Service 8 /89 /90 rerouted from duke st to along gallowgate (should help with reliability avoiding duke st traffic) also service 8 re routed hyndland rd highburgh rd great western rd kirklee rd garrioch rd
Return the 4/A to the full route
New service S8 to run tesco wyndford
Tesco maryhill rd qm drive Hotspur street garrioch rd
(Between 7 and 10 am and 2 and 4pm school days only )to serve new school being build on qm drive
Core routes to run later with last departure at midnight services 1,2,3,4,6,10,40,38/c,60,
Same services to start no later than 4am
New service 11
Gartcosh fort garthamlock millerston robroyston auchinarin bishopbriggs
Hourly
Service 46 split in two with new service 48 taking over easterhouse to bridgeton section with service also to serve Alexander prade (half hourly)
And 46 to become castlemilk to parkhead staying in duke st (half hourly)
765 renumbered a 13 and to run hourly all day
709 renumbered 14 and to run hourly all day
New service 100
Science centre transport museum reliving grove Goma pollok house
Not sure of exact route or order but to leave BBS weekends and school holidays only hourly service
X78 to move to hourly service all day with alternating buses serving silverburn (x78a)
X3 extending to serve glasgow uni
Service 10 alternating journeys extend to maryhill 10 and glasgow fort for 10A
M4 route change to serve hyndland rd then highburgh rd
7 split in two new number 63 to run section from town current route except extending to bearsden
Current 7 to run rutherglen to st enoch center
New service 23
Drumchapel partick (current avondale 400 route) tunnel qeuh silverburn
32 extended to garthamlock terminus
34A withdrawn
8A withdrawn
X4 withdrawn
128 to serve hamilton hill
Core routes to run later with last departure at midnight services 1,2,3,4,6,10,40,38/c,60,
Same services to start no later than 4am
New service 11
Gartcosh fort garthamlock millerston robroyston auchinarin bishopbriggs
Hourly
Service 46 split in two with new service 48 taking over easterhouse to bridgeton section with service also to serve Alexander prade (half hourly)
And 46 to become castlemilk to parkhead staying in duke st (half hourly)
765 renumbered a 13 and to run hourly all day
709 renumbered 14 and to run hourly all day
New service 100
Science centre transport museum reliving grove Goma pollok house
Not sure of exact route or order but to leave BBS weekends and school holidays only hourly service
X78 to move to hourly service all day with alternating buses serving silverburn (x78a)
X3 extending to serve glasgow uni
New fare structure
Short hop £1 less than 8 stops
Long hop £2 8 to 30 stops
Ultra long hop £2.50 more than 30 stops
Adult all day £4
Student All day £3
Child all day £1
Family all day £8 and promote this ticket
Also think McGills are there for the taking I would replicate there busiest routes especially out of silverburn and along prw
Copy avondale 200 except make it a circular service via linnvale and old drumchapel
New service 44 easterhouse circular
Easterhouse terminus shopping centre morrissons (bus stop in the carpark of Morrison currently out of use )
Fort and just use a solo(using the easterhouse loop)
Replace 60A with new service every 30 mins
BBS - milingavie numbered 62
Split the 38s
So 38e and 38b merged to becomes service 40
Bbs to bargeggdie via barlanark and carntyne square every 20 mins
38c renumbered 36 running from commerce st every 20 mins
38/A to remain unchanged except 38A only to thornlie bank both on a 10 min frequency
Or 5 min combined
New service 51/A easterhouse terminus , fort , wellhouse , edinburgh rd (A to go via queenslie instead only before 10am and between 4pm and 6pm) cranhill edinburgh rd (replaces axed 38E) Todd st , duke st, union st ,commerce street
Reintroduce 89/90 as inner outer running from breahead
New service 25 silverburn , pollok , govan , qeuh, braehead (hourly)
X8 to run all day and tie in with new services 40 and 62 at bbs (alternating buses from each to become x8s)
Service 8 /89 /90 rerouted from duke st to along gallowgate (should help with reliability avoiding duke st traffic) also service 8 re routed hyndland rd highburgh rd great western rd kirklee rd garrioch rd
Return the 4/A to the full route
New service S8 to run tesco wyndford
Tesco maryhill rd qm drive Hotspur street garrioch rd
(Between 7 and 10 am and 2 and 4pm school days only )to serve new school being build on qm drive
Core routes to run later with last departure at midnight services 1,2,3,4,6,10,40,38/c,60,
Same services to start no later than 4am
New service 11
Gartcosh fort garthamlock millerston robroyston auchinarin bishopbriggs
Hourly
Service 46 split in two with new service 48 taking over easterhouse to bridgeton section with service also to serve Alexander prade (half hourly)
And 46 to become castlemilk to parkhead staying in duke st (half hourly)
765 renumbered a 13 and to run hourly all day
709 renumbered 14 and to run hourly all day
New service 100
Science centre transport museum reliving grove Goma pollok house
Not sure of exact route or order but to leave BBS weekends and school holidays only hourly service
X78 to move to hourly service all day with alternating buses serving silverburn (x78a)
X3 extending to serve glasgow uni
Service 10 alternating journeys extend to maryhill 10 and glasgow fort for 10A
M4 route change to serve hyndland rd then highburgh rd
7 split in two new number 63 to run section from town current route except extending to bearsden
Current 7 to run rutherglen to st enoch center
New service 23
Drumchapel partick (current avondale 400 route) tunnel qeuh silverburn
32 extended to garthamlock terminus
34A withdrawn
8A withdrawn
X4 withdrawn
128 to serve hamilton hill
Core routes to run later with last departure at midnight services 1,2,3,4,6,10,40,38/c,60,
Same services to start no later than 4am
New service 11
Gartcosh fort garthamlock millerston robroyston auchinarin bishopbriggs
Hourly
Service 46 split in two with new service 48 taking over easterhouse to bridgeton section with service also to serve Alexander prade (half hourly)
And 46 to become castlemilk to parkhead staying in duke st (half hourly)
765 renumbered a 13 and to run hourly all day
709 renumbered 14 and to run hourly all day
New service 100
Science centre transport museum reliving grove Goma pollok house
Not sure of exact route or order but to leave BBS weekends and school holidays only hourly service
X78 to move to hourly service all day with alternating buses serving silverburn (x78a)
X3 extending to serve glasgow uni
New fare structure
Short hop £1 less than 8 stops
Long hop £2 8 to 30 stops
Ultra long hop £2.50 more than 30 stops
Adult all day £4
Student All day £3
Child all day £1
Family all day £8 and promote this ticket
Also think McGills are there for the taking I would replicate there busiest routes especially out of silverburn and along prw
Copy avondale 200 except make it a circular service via linnvale and old drumchapel
New service 44 easterhouse circular
Easterhouse terminus shopping centre morrissons (bus stop in the carpark of Morrison currently out of use )
Fort and just use a solo(using the easterhouse loop)
First tried this before with the 39 and there was up roar and they had sell through tickets so people could get to town it also pushed people on to the x19 from cranhill essentially killing the market in cranhill which was reliant on its bus service as so few people owned cars and even now the 46 is a fresh air special most on the day as people years later are still pissed of
Yeah the change completely killed the 41s reliability
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Agree with everything except the 200. The M60 is close to a full copy with some tweaks between Drumchapel and Clydebank and even Avondale have just cut frequency into Linnvale by swapping the 200 and 100 over so the 100 is now the Linnvale bus every 20 mins. Does mean there's a gap in there too though so maybe extending the M60 to Linnvale could be a good idea. Would also deal with the frustrating part that the M60 only stops at the bus station and not Asda towards Clydebank
Wonder if First could actually drum up decent numbers in Robroyston by capitalising on where the new train station is. Have a service like this for example:
Auchinairn-Briarcroft-Glendale-Robroyston Asda-Robroyston Road-Millerston-Robroyston Station- Avenue End Road-Mossvale Road-Garthamlock-Glasgow Fort
They've always had services terminate at Drumchapel Train Station so it's clearly not something they've never done by using where train stations are located to route a bus.
Could even extend the 87 to do this too
Auchinairn-Briarcroft-Glendale-Robroyston Asda-Robroyston Road-Millerston-Robroyston Station- Avenue End Road-Mossvale Road-Garthamlock-Glasgow Fort
They've always had services terminate at Drumchapel Train Station so it's clearly not something they've never done by using where train stations are located to route a bus.
Could even extend the 87 to do this too
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Tbh I take a lot of time before I post anything on here
A lot of route suggestions are not taking into account where driver changeovers are going to take place.
I always consider that just as much as anything else
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
TBH it seems like a wish list. For the great long list of stuff, how many additional vehicles do that equate to?
I know for some changes mentioned by others there's definitely more a wishlist vibe to them and based off of unlimited budget hence why a lot of mines are more just alterations and not lots of extras. I've mentioned cuts a lot through some of my changes too. My main mention of anything has always been don't cut something without ever trying to change it. I would look at the loss-makers and low passenger services and see if anything could be done to improve them without taking them off completely as I think that's been a big reason for the drop in customer numbers over the years. Having no alternative option basically means people have no choice but to switch to car or train and it's something any bus company needs to tread carefully with. There's a lot of potential for great use of buses in Glasgow but the network is a bit stagnant currently and reliability is a huge issue that is never really ever addressed in timetables. Definitely build a network around the core routes but never leave the rest untouched for too long.
I would also take customer feedback on board far more too. Social media could be used so much better by First and it would definitely benefit them to have a local team that could be so much more helpful.
I would also look at fare prices too and reduce them a bit. It's far too easy for train to be value over buses especially if people don't use the bus much out of their working week. Railcards are cheap and Smartcards are an option too and the discounts off of train fares are very much worth it. A lot of people do prefer speed over cost but when cost is also worse then the bus isn't going to win overall
I would also take customer feedback on board far more too. Social media could be used so much better by First and it would definitely benefit them to have a local team that could be so much more helpful.
I would also look at fare prices too and reduce them a bit. It's far too easy for train to be value over buses especially if people don't use the bus much out of their working week. Railcards are cheap and Smartcards are an option too and the discounts off of train fares are very much worth it. A lot of people do prefer speed over cost but when cost is also worse then the bus isn't going to win overall
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I don’t think you do going by some of your previous suggestions and that’s not me having a go at you. Scheduling routes is not as easy as just thinking up a route and going with it especially with the size of the Glasgow network.
Not even tried to work it out but it would be too many for First Glasgow at this moment in time. The PVRs are being decreased for a reason.
I've never once thought it was tbh hence why I put a lot of thought into my suggestions. The one good thing about the depot locations First have here is that there is pretty good flexibility when changeovers are being considered. Dumbarton is probably the only one that's a bit limited and Overtown too but Blantyre, Caledonia and Scotstoun come with plenty of options as the current network shows
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I was talking about the long list but even with your "extras"....how many more have you calculated?
When talking about people using the train, there are different markets. For those commuters paying cash fares (even with season tickets etc), it's it's seldom about price and about speed and convenience with the train usually costing more during peak times. Most people aren't going to get up earlier/get home later because the bus is a pound or two a day cheaper. Off peak, the train might be cheaper with a railcard but then again, a substantial number of those travelling are pass holders anyway and they will probably travel by bus anyway. Now, I can't recall the reimbursement formula of Scotland but does it also work (as in England and Wales) as a percentage of the single fare so by reducing that to attract some casual users, doesn't it depress the revenue for all concessionary fares?
Reliability is a key issue in bus operation, not just in Glasgow. However, Glasgow has adopted a very pro car stance over the last 30-40 years (extending motorways, retaining on street parking. It's no wonder bus patronage has fallen (though the sins of First's past certainly haven't helped). None of that helps bus service reliability (i.e. keeping to time) and that is much more important in maintaining passenger numbers.
I'm sure that Mr Jarvis, a highly experience busman, is well versed in the challenges of running Glasgow's buses.
Beginning to notice a common theme on here and not just on this forum. It's always the people who never suggest anything and tell you what you already know that are first to dismiss your ideas. As someone from Glasgow I've not been told anything I don't already know about my own city regarding public transport too. If you are gonna dismiss ideas, present yours first
Maybe we are not in a position to be posting ideas and route sensitive info on a public forum. How have you not been told something you don’t know? You asked a question on the actual First Glasgow thread and I gave you an answer. I assume by your post you already knew the answer?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
There are some really pivotal, fundamental issues here. It's not about you.
The issues about concessionary fare reimbursement are something that is affecting the entire bus industry, not just Glasgow. That's why operators are following the policy that they are, especially in respect of "casual user". One idea might be to have a three stop hop (as opposed to the 8 stops mentioned earlier) that might be easier for some though caution on revenue control for over-riding will have to be factored in. However, a blanket cut in fares would be detrimental.
The reasons why people choose trains over buses is what happens. Those are the dynamics and it's why certain corridors have been adversely affected (see the decline of the X95 from Gala to Edinburgh, the Bathgate to Edinburgh corridor). Buses have a USP over the train and cost is seldom it - the recent Leeds to Manchester CityZap was cheaper but that didn't outweigh the speed benefits of the train.
Glasgow needs to cut down on its car dependency culture that it has cultivated over the last 40 years. Weaning people from on-street parking might be an idea? If they reduced that by, say 5% YOY AND then used the resultant road space for bus priority, that would have a massive benefit. The only positives I have seen have been that, unlike a number of other UK cities, the LEZ will apply to all vehicles. Even then, buses are having to get their house in order well before the car owner.
In terms of where First should focus their attention, then it makes sense for them to focus not on the marginal routes, but on the core money makers and I'm sure that Mr Jarvis is looking at the MI to get the information that informs route changes and investment decisions. That explains the branding and investment decisions (in the main, at least). However, that's getting away from the main point - First need to get the authorities to stop favouring the car and let the bus get through. Do that and they might have a fighting chance!
You've missed my point entirely. If I've asked a question then that's when I don't know something. I'm talking about when I've suggested something that's been shot down immediately and followed up with very obvious stuff I've already discussed too. Everyone can post ideas especially if they just dismiss others very quickly.
cnjb8
Established Member
This is very silly:
A: Bus and driver shortage
B: They should be focusing on upgrading the fleet to Euro 6 than adding extra buses in the area that needs Euro 6
Definitely agree with a lot of what you are saying and Glasgow is as car-centric as any city I've been to but the thing is cost, especially for families, is a constantly mentioned factor as to why car is just miles better so if the bus would also still need to be cheaper anyway to be more attractive. All being stricter on cars within the city centre has done is make people go to out of city shops instead of the city centre and not really fix the problem if anything it's worse now with the likes of Silverburn, Glasgow Fort and Braehead be as popular as they've ever been. Plenty of failures from the council but First definitely miss the mark here more than it looks by not doing anything with routes outside of their core ones. First also need to make their timetables a little more realistic too in certain regards and this may help the reliability. Seen it too many times where the roads are very quiet and the bus isn't busy yet it's still 10/15 mins late. The 1/1A/1B are definitely great examples of this. The timings between Clydebank and Scotstoun are different to that of Scotstoun to Clydebank yet it's the exact same route. Could be made directly every 10 mins like it is from Clydebank towards Dumbarton and from the A82 to Old Kilpatrick instead of the 8 min then 12 min mess that it currently is. Since I've been about 5/6(I'm 25 now) the 2 most common reasons I've seen and heard for not using the bus have been cost and reliability and there's more that definitely needs to be done for First to keep numbers from falling so much more. It's been lucky that there's not really been a credible opposition to First and if there was I fear that a lot more would switch
Withdrawing the 34a without replacing is totally madness
I'd do it the other way around. Make the 34A every 15 mins again, cut the 34 and extend the 34A to Govan like it does at night and on a Sunday anyway
Glasgowbusguy
On Moderation
- Joined
- 21 Feb 2019
- Messages
- 419
On the point of driver change overs they could be done in route at places like the fort
BBS silverburn govan or on interworked services
And around pvr ovb it's not all possible but some of them would be pvr cuts overall and others are done to avoid traffic on places like duke st , byres rd , union st , hope st
BBS silverburn govan or on interworked services
And around pvr ovb it's not all possible but some of them would be pvr cuts overall and others are done to avoid traffic on places like duke st , byres rd , union st , hope st
Fort, Silverburn and Govan might be a bit far out for a changeover but places like Partick bus station, BBS etc currently prove to work well. Anything that's not miles away from the depot and well out the way of traffic would be the ideal. Fulton St and Anniesland Cross are also currently used and work reasonably well although currently the 16 could easily be done from Partick and the X4 and 6 could be done from Scotstounhill too as Anniesland Cross is a bit crowded especially for the 6/6A changeovers. 6A being done from the top of Lincoln Avenue wouldn't be bad either as the stops are well positioned for drivers who could just use the 3 to get up.
Overall though there are a lot of flexible options for changeovers and it's a good thing to have when any new things are tried or routes are altered.
On the subject of upgrading to Euro 6 etc, this is where my other idea comes in. We could even have a shake-up of the services that are loss-makers or low profit but not affected by the LEZ. Services like the 8, 32, 46, 90 etc. Could try new things within a total of the buses currently used on each route, therefore, no change to PVR at all.
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