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Memories of the introduction of Pacer units

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Mat17

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-pacer-withdrawals-info.166981/

The 142s (bus seats and Merseyrail abomnations) were a real step down in comfort compared to the 101s. They were also a darn sight colder in winter too!

That said though, the 142s look antiquated and have done for a while, the 101s looked very much a fragment of the past by the time they went, similar to the wonderful IC125s - an amazing piece of kit from a bygone age.
 
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ed1971

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The Pacers became very reliable after all units had received Voith gearboxes and the direct brake modification in 1991. At 35 years of age they have lasted just as long or longer than many first generation DMUs.

The Class 104s were the worst trains that I remember. They had filthy dark wooden stained interiors with tungsten lighting, diesel fumes coming inside and in common with all first generation DMUs (except Class 123s) rode terribly with severe bogie hunting. This 1989 video of Manchester Victoria in 1989, shows them at 6:00 and 9:47 :
When introduced, the shiny clean Pacer units were welcomed with open arms.
 

bramling

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Add in bouncy cushions, and that's the perfect train for me.

Likewise. It's a shame many of these units were in a pretty dire condition by the end, unfortunately a ride on many preserved examples doesn't quite give the full 1980s experience. The Lockington mishap also demonstrated that their crashworthiness wasn't wonderful either.
 

alangla

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Speaking of bouncing and hunting, the heritage DMUs and EMUs were mainly leaf sprung, weren’t they? Was it just springs between the axle and bogie and nothing between bogie & body? AIUI one key difference between the Pacer and everything afterwards (apart from the Pacers lack of bogie) was that Sprinters etc all had a secondary airbag between bogie & body that damped out most of the bouncing.
 

yorksrob

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Likewise. It's a shame many of these units were in a pretty dire condition by the end, unfortunately a ride on many preserved examples doesn't quite give the full 1980s experience. The Lockington mishap also demonstrated that their crashworthiness wasn't wonderful either.

I wasn't up north then, but the thumpers were a rather lovely travelling experience in their tungsten years.

It's a sad fact that many nice trains are rather let go of in their final years. I'm seeing the same with the 144's at the moment.
 

KevinTurvey

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When introduced there was more indifference than welcoming towards them. Yes they had nice clean interiors compared to say the 104's which even in the mid 80's looked really dated. Given the heavy modifications and the switch to welded rail over the last 30+ years a Pacer ride today is not what it once was.

This is the passenger experience on a nearly new one with poppy red panels and striped seating. I'd forgotten the door control was actually fixed to the rear panel when they had split doors. Even though its only a few years old the ceiling panels appear to be quite badly stained already.

This is a late Saturday afternoon in April 1990 with a Wigan - Liverpool making the Bryn stop. Notice the complete absence of any passengers either on the train or platforms!


img367_edited-1.jpg
 

WillPS

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Brilliant shot, thanks very much! Any idea when they lost that seating? Early days of privatisation?

I remember at one point the FGW subleased 142s were considered the most vintage, then they were overhauled and that honour moved to the Oldham Loop ones...
 

Mogster

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When introduced there was more indifference than welcoming towards them. Yes they had nice clean interiors compared to say the 104's which even in the mid 80's looked really dated.View attachment 72860

That’s the way I remember it. The “bus” as opposed to “train” experience wasn’t exactly welcomed and it was obvious from the start that they weren’t high quality units. They 142s have always been very cold in winter which wasn’t a problem with the old DMUs they replaced. The bouncy seats in the old DMUs were very comfy.
 

Mat17

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Brilliant shot, thanks very much! Any idea when they lost that seating? Early days of privatisation?

I remember at one point the FGW subleased 142s were considered the most vintage, then they were overhauled and that honour moved to the Oldham Loop ones...

The Northern Spirit ones had that interior through to 2000/1 time era. Obviously the doors had changed by then to the current form of single leaf. Also the interior parcel partition doors had long since been removed leaving empty bulk heads.

The class 144s had similar striped seating albeit in reddish-orange instead of blue. I assume the 143s would have had the same seating fabric as the 142s. Correct me if I'm wrong but I always assume the reddish interior styling was a WYPTE thing to match the original red and cream livery.
 

Sprinter107

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The Northern Spirit ones had that interior through to 2000/1 time era. Obviously the doors had changed by then to the current form of single leaf. Also the interior parcel partition doors had long since been removed leaving empty bulk heads.

The class 144s had similar striped seating albeit in reddish-orange instead of blue. I assume the 143s would have had the same seating fabric as the 142s. Correct me if I'm wrong but I always assume the reddish interior styling was a WYPTE thing to match the original red and cream livery.
When I went on a 143 before the bus seats were replaced, it was the red and orange stripes instead of the blue as per 142. So the same as a 144 I guess. Never went on a 144 when they had bus seats as far as I can remember
 

Springs Branch

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When introduced there was more indifference than welcoming towards them......
When Pacers were first introduced, my brother (a bus enthusiast) and I made a convoluted bus trip to Oldham Mumps one gloomy Saturday afternoon just so we could ride one of these new-fangled machines to Manchester Victoria. I remember those red interior panels from that trip.

Although it was good to see some shiny, new rolling stock appearing at last, as @KevinTurvey said, we both walked away from the experience feeling decidedly underwhelmed.
 

sprinterguy

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Brilliant shot, thanks very much! Any idea when they lost that seating? Early days of privatisation?
The majority of Newton Heath's class 142s have retained that bus seating right to the end of their lives!

In terms of the seat moquette, I assume it was replaced on Newton Heath based units in the early years of First North Western, probably about the same time that Northern Spirit were fully refurbishing the interiors of theirs with new seats on the other side of the pennines circa 2001/2002.
When I went on a 143 before the bus seats were replaced, it was the red and orange stripes instead of the blue as per 142. So the same as a 144 I guess. Never went on a 144 when they had bus seats as far as I can remember
There's a photo on Flickr of a brand new class 143 interior in 1986 at the link below, which confirms that they did indeed have the red and orange stripes:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/taysider64/21923271026
Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-pacer-withdrawals-info.166981/

The 142s (bus seats and Merseyrail abomnations) were a real step down in comfort compared to the 101s. They were also a darn sight colder in winter too!
Though of course the Merseyrail seating came much later than the units original introduction. The units weren't refurbished with those seats fitted until around 2000.
 

coppercapped

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Speaking of bouncing and hunting, the heritage DMUs and EMUs were mainly leaf sprung, weren’t they? Was it just springs between the axle and bogie and nothing between bogie & body? AIUI one key difference between the Pacer and everything afterwards (apart from the Pacers lack of bogie) was that Sprinters etc all had a secondary airbag between bogie & body that damped out most of the bouncing.
The reason that the earlier trains rode badly was that there was no comprehensive understanding of rail suspension systems at the time.
The early DMUs had, as you say, leaf sprung primary suspension but they did also had secondary suspension.

The issues were that the axle boxes were located by horn guides. There was was some 'slop' between the axle box and the guide so the axlebox could move vertically. This meant that the axles could twist slightly in the bogie frame and this motion was not controlled.

Between the body and the bogie was a lateral bolster and spring plank assembly. The spring plank was suspended from the bogie side frames by swing links to allow the bogie to move laterally with respect to the body. On top of the spring plank the bogie bolster was located — this had the pivot to the body in the middle and there were springs between it and the spring plank. There was a form of horn guide to keep the two parts located horizontally while allowing them to move vertically with respect to each other as the springs moved.

The issues with this general design of bogie - in common with many bogies used up to the mid-1960s - is the uncontrolled free play and the uncertain damping characteristics of the leaf springs and horn guides. When new the ride was acceptable, but as soon as wear set in the parts could move relative to each other in an uncontrolled manner. The result was the bogie could 'hunt' at quite low speeds and oscillations were uncontrolled.

In addition the early DMU bogies had very short, inclined, swing links so the natural frequency of lateral oscillation was quite high. Some DMUs, certainly the Pressed Steel ones operating out of Paddington, had the secondary suspension modified by the early 1960s in that the swing links were replaced by much longer vertical ones and a hydraulic damper was added to control the lateral oscillations rather than relying on friction. At speeds up to 70mph the ride was then just about acceptable for the standards of the time.

The secondary airbag in modern bogies replaces the swing link/bolster/spring plank assembly with the airbag which copes with all the rotational and lateral movements. In addition the air pressure is load sensitive which means the secondary suspension always has the same amount of deflection available in contrast to a coil or leaf spring which compresses under load and so the bump stops are more often hit! A halfway stage to the modern bogie is the BT10 under the Mark 3 coach. This retains the swing links but replaces the secondary coil springs with air bags and the hornguide between the bolster and spring plank by the horizontal radius arm linking the bolster and the bogie frame very accurately; the primary suspension is also modern with the axle boxes located by a radius arm and the motion damped hydraulically. When these coaches came out they were a revelation!
 

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When Pacers were first introduced, my brother (a bus enthusiast) and I made a convoluted bus trip to Oldham Mumps one gloomy Saturday afternoon just so we could ride one of these new-fangled machines to Manchester Victoria. I remember those red interior panels from that trip.

Although it was good to see some shiny, new rolling stock appearing at last, as @KevinTurvey said, we both walked away from the experience feeling decidedly underwhelmed.

Now even Oldham Mumps has passed into history :(
 

Willr2094

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When I went on a 143 before the bus seats were replaced, it was the red and orange stripes instead of the blue as per 142. So the same as a 144 I guess. Never went on a 144 when they had bus seats as far as I can remember

The 144s when they had their original interior had the bus seats covered in a two-tone brown/orange version of the stripe moquette that 142s had. They lost this during refurbishment between 2002 and 2004, which saw the current high-back seating installed with red/grey upholstery.
 

alangla

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Lots of detail about heritage & more modern unit suspension

Thanks! Fantastic post & thank you for taking the time to write it, very much appreciated. Am I right in saying that a Pacer has primary coil spring suspension only & no secondary suspension?
 

coppercapped

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Thanks! Fantastic post & thank you for taking the time to write it, very much appreciated. Am I right in saying that a Pacer has primary coil spring suspension only & no secondary suspension?
Essentially, yes. However the design of the suspension is very clever and used much of the understanding gained during the development of the Advanced Passenger Train. Although limited to 75mph in service the suspension was tested to 90mph on the track and to 120mph on Derby's rolling test rig where it ran stably - this from a two axle design which was amazing when one realises that only a few years earlier two axle Palvans were jumping off the track at a bit more than 20mph.

Basically what the engineers had managed to create was a single axle bogie. It might not be ideal on sharp curves and jointed track but it was a lightweight and effective suspension for light passenger vehicles.

There is a rudimentary form of secondary suspension in that there are flexible rubber mountings between the the underframe and the body which give a degree of isolation and extra springing. The BR prototype Class 140, in the interests of 'safety', essentially bolted the body directly to the underframe - testing showed this was a very bad idea indeed from the point of view of passenger comfort and the Class 141s and subsequent trains reverted to the flexible mounting.
 

ed1971

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Not unlike Leyland National buses then!

I am finding that the ADL Enviro 400 buses are not that warm either.

I went on 142078 at the weekend. It is one of the ATN refurbs. It was very warm and cosy. It is a shame that all 142s were not given this refurb.
 
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ed1971

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In 1988 there was an epidemic of failed SCG gearboxes on Pacers. For a time, around 10 142s were stored in the Crewe Carriage Shed waiting an upturn in gearbox availability. By the end of 1988 it had been decided to fit half the 142 fleet with Voith gearboxes. Most blue livered 142s had been converted by mid 1989. By June 1989, it had been decided to convert all 142s, 143s and 144s.

The Leyland TL11 engine seemed badly matched to the Voith gearbox and was very sluggish and noisy. At college at the time, we dubbed the converted units 'Voith-bugged' because of this! (This video of 142023 leaving Wigan Wallgate in 1991 at 1:56mins illustrates the point:
). When catching a 142 during the conversion period, I always hoped it was an unmodified set. It didn't take me long to notice that all the 14 GMPTE orange livered units 142001-14, retained their SCG gearboxes. They were the last ones to be converted.
 
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Skipness

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Not unlike Leyland National buses then!
Well here I will have to disagree. I drove many Nationals around Sheffield with Yorkshire Terrier that had come from a host of different operators. They all seemed warm buses (the heating switch was in the panel above the rear window, certainly compared to the Strachan bodied Bedfords with cold plastic seats run by Silver Service of Darley Dale
 

ed1971

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Well here I will have to disagree. I drove many Nationals around Sheffield with Yorkshire Terrier that had come from a host of different operators. They all seemed warm buses (the heating switch was in the panel above the rear window, certainly compared to the Strachan bodied Bedfords with cold plastic seats run by Silver Service of Darley Dale

Actually, Leyland Nationals were very long lived in some fleets. True that the 510 'headless wonder' engine was the achilles heel of the MK1, but some operators overcame this by fitting them with Gardner, DAF or Volvo engines or later the Cummins B series with an Allison gearbox. J Fishwick & Son of Leyland were still operating some smartly turned out DAF re-engined MK1s in the mid 1990s. The DAF engine was a development of the Leyland O.680.
 

Anonymous10

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When introduced there was more indifference than welcoming towards them. Yes they had nice clean interiors compared to say the 104's which even in the mid 80's looked really dated. Given the heavy modifications and the switch to welded rail over the last 30+ years a Pacer ride today is not what it once was.

This is the passenger experience on a nearly new one with poppy red panels and striped seating. I'd forgotten the door control was actually fixed to the rear panel when they had split doors. Even though its only a few years old the ceiling panels appear to be quite badly stained already.

This is a late Saturday afternoon in April 1990 with a Wigan - Liverpool making the Bryn stop. Notice the complete absence of any passengers either on the train or platforms!


View attachment 72860
Looks surprising familiar and I'm only 18 and live in Wales valleys trains really only changed the seats
 

D2007wsm

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The majority of Newton Heath's class 142s have retained that bus seating right to the end of their lives!

In terms of the seat moquette, I assume it was replaced on Newton Heath based units in the early years of First North Western, probably about the same time that Northern Spirit were fully refurbishing the interiors of theirs with new seats on the other side of the pennines circa 2001/2002.

There's a photo on Flickr of a brand new class 143 interior in 1986 at the link below, which confirms that they did indeed have the red and orange stripes:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/taysider64/21923271026

Though of course the Merseyrail seating came much later than the units original introduction. The units weren't refurbished with those seats fitted until around 2000.
I remember 143s with that interior in the Wales and West then Wessex Trains era. This was until they were refurbished by Wessex Trains which made them a whole lot better. The seats were replaced with high backed individual Chapmans minus arm rests with a green spotty or red spotty moquette and lime green rubber hand rails at the top of the seats and grab poles. The end panelling was then green. This made them a hole lot better. Valley Lines did there 142s and 143s the same.

First Great Western then refurbished them again into lilac panelling, pink grab rails and seat hand rails and the dark blue Dynamic Lines moquette. This did make them look good and on good track were no different to a 150. The mini GWR refresh on them also adds something with the greys.

These are definitely the best examples of the Pacers and shows what can be done with them, these are only let down by the shortcomings of the lack of bogies and the stepped entrances.
 
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