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Soweto Kinch was refused access to first-class carriage

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AnkleBoots

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Soweto Kinch was refused access to first-class carriage according to this article.

“Just on my way down to the studio today I was not allowed on to a first-class train carriage with a first-class ticket … And if I kick off about it, then I’m aggressive and I’m, you know, and it’s kind of this tacit acceptance, everybody knows what’s going on.”

“What happened was that he [the guard] decided there weren’t enough seats within this first-class carriage, even though I had filmed four seats perfectly available. And rather than just rushing to social media in a rage, I thought, ‘OK let me just observe what this is here.’

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...o-kinch-refused-entry-to-first-class-carriage

Does anyone here know which TOC and which route this was? Was there an overcrowding issue?
 
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Coolzac

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Whilst obviously we can't know the exact circumstances, and despite my occasional experiences with difficult rail staff, there could have been good reason for why he wasn't allowed in. It seems extremely unlikely to me that the guard just saw a black person and thought 'oh no, i'm not going to let them sit in first class'.

These things can be a bit self reinforcing- I have had my fair amount of situations where I have been treated badly in a customer service situation, but I don't blame it on my minority status - it's just life!
 

WesternLancer

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Soweto Kinch was refused access to first-class carriage according to this article.
]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...o-kinch-refused-entry-to-first-class-carriage

Does anyone here know which TOC and which route this was? Was there an overcrowding issue?

I saw the original broadcast this article was on - Peston pushed him a bit for more detail because he mentioned it in passing - but he did not give much in the way of detail (ie did not mention TOC, route etc).

However, he has posted a more detailed account on facebook I see (I see on his twitter feed he was being 'called out' about it by journalist Toby Young (considered to be a right wing commentator) - and it sounds like it was on an Avanti WC train from Birmingham - although there is some lack of clarity as it seems to suggest that he believed 1st class seating was at both ends of the train (is that possible? maybe on a 2 set voyager?)

It's nuanced stuff when you read the account as in fairness to him the overall TV discussion was about regular petty or otherwise low level racism that he encounters all the time, whereas reading his own account of the train incident one might interpret the staff behaviour as 'unhelpful and not customer focussed' and sadly there is no shortage of that in the UK!

The only direct quote would seem to be the TM saying "I can't guarantee you a seat" in 1st class - which may well be the case if the TM did or did not know the state of reservations, if Soweto had a walk up ticket with no reservation. Empty seats that may be reserved by people 2 minutes away from claiming their seats would mean such a seat could not be 'gauranteed' after all.

It also seems like the TM may have been about to dispatch the train (Soweto only had seconds to spare) and thus would not have had time on his hands to help people with bags?

If I was Avnati public relations team I'd be privately reviewing the CCTV however...

Link is here to Soweto's account, which is all we really have

https://www.facebook.com/598100778/posts/10156792220420779/?d=n

I said
“I was not allowed into a first class carriage with a first class ticket.”
Then it's 'exhausting' to have to prove it’s racism?? The malignant beauty of British racism is it’s plausible deniability. Its the Keyser Soze of racisms.

I probably wouldn't have posted this, if a thousand illiberal snowflakes had tweeted that I made the whole thing up.

Here’s what happened…

I ran to make the 4.30 train, and made it to the platform with only seconds to spare. I pegged it with two saxophones, a heavy suitcase and a rucksack past four carriages to the first available first class carriage. I had a 1st class ticket..

With barely a minute before departure, a train ‘manager’ intercepted me said, ‘I can’t guarantee you a seat’

I looked and saw at least 4 empty seats and thought that sounded strange. Obviously tired from running, and having put down my saxophones, I wondered why he was being so pedantic. I asked for help with my bag... which he promptly declined. He said I had to get off, and board the adjacent train. As soon as I boarded the next carriage I saw it was a fully crowded standard carriage, and I’d have to now stand.

Annoyed at being made to stand, when I could have sat for at least 10 minutes (between New St and Birmingham International) I shouted for his name, and he didn’t give it.

It’s of course hard to ‘prove’ racism. without footage. But his attitude was curt, to say the least. He told me ‘calm down’ at the same time as hurry up and ‘get off the train’
I had a chat with a couple on the next carriage going to yoga class, which calmed me down significantly.

At no point did he say ‘there’s a first class carriage at the end of the train’ or even more helpfully, ‘Do I need a hand?’ Or you can leave your suitcase here and come back for it.’..I digress

Nobody ever says ‘I’m not letting you put your bags down and sit for 10 minutes because your a black geezer and I resent your negrosity.’ It’s an unspoken animus that you can see your fellow white passengers aren’t being subjected to

I get off the train after 10 minutes and still haven’t been told there’s a first class carriage at the front. The same member of staff is now physically blocking me from getting on the train in 1st class. At this point I start recording.

You can see in the clip. There are clearly free seats... I’m audibly fuming that I might be missing the important ITV interview later, because he won’t let me on the train. Then he says...
‘There’s a first class carriage at the front of the train’

Believe me his tone was a lot more polite once I started filming!

So now I had to run to board the train, as the whistles blowing... with the 4 bags, in standard class. Leave my bags behind, walk to 1st class at the other end of the Train... which was actually FULLY BOOKED!! The were more empty seats in the other 1st class carriage than the one I had left ‍♂️

To cut a long and frankly boring story short, I spent 20 minutes, either standing or moving between seats. Before eventually sitting down in first class with all my bags in tow. For the princely sum of £170, I don’t think it qualifies as a 1st class service.

I will be making a formal complaint to Avanti. There was actually no need for the train manager to be as rude to me as he was. One practical reason I haven’t followed up with the authorities... was... rushing to get to the TV studio, for PESTON and then rushing to the airport for an early flight. It literally happened hours before the interview.

Here’s where it gets more interesting...
I spoke to train staff afterwards. The two Asian staff said, ‘that guy’s can be a bit funny’ the white woman said ‘In 18 years of working with him, I’ve never known him to be racist’. They all AGREED he didn’t have to handle a seating arrangement so aggressively. Maybe there’s a pithy proverbial lesson here.

Of course, they say ‘he was probably just stressed’ and ‘You’re just reading race into it’, among other #racistproverbs
I would ask, can I get onto train without being harangued?

Look guys.. it’s not my job to prove to white people whether they’re racist or not. At no point in our ugly interaction did the train manager say ‘black’ neither did I say ‘racism.’
I've had this with Pizza, National Express, Easy Jet…This sort of thing happens more or less every day. Micro aggressions have been becoming macro aggressions for a while now.

I’d just like you to observe the ferocity of the denials on Twitter to know we definitely have a problem talking about race/racism rationally...its just weird and very, very tiring.
 
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jumble

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Typical Jackass who has 4 items of luggage when as I understand it NRCOT only allows 3 is moaning about not being allowed to inconvenience other people in first who do play by the rules and then plays the race card
 

WesternLancer

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Typical Jackass who has 4 items of luggage when as I understand it NRCOT only allows 3 is moaning about not being allowed to inconvenience other people in first who do play by the rules and then plays the race card
Well, that's not actually what he said - at no point does he indicate that the TM told him he had too much luggage or that he would inconvenience other passengers. He claims the TM "could not guarantee him a seat".
 

jumble

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Well, that's not actually what he said - at no point does he indicate that the TM told him he had too much luggage or that he would inconvenience other passengers. He claims the TM "could not guarantee him a seat".
Which I am sure is true but how do you know the seats the OP thought were free were not in fact reserved for someone who has joined the train in a different part and is as they spoke moving towards their seats ?
I personally think this story has more holes than a Swiss cheese
for example the complainer claims that he was made to get on a different train
 

WesternLancer

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What route was this? Could it have been one where 5 were coming off and terminating short?
Hard to tell - but the implication is it was B'ham New St to London with Avanti West Coast at 16.30 - I see 2 listed at that time - one starting from Shrewsbury, the other starting at New St (are they 2 different trains)? as I see today they are both on platform 4 so is this a point where 2 units are combined / detached?
 

Llanigraham

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Hard to tell - but the implication is it was B'ham New St to London with Avanti West Coast at 16.30 - I see 2 listed at that time - one starting from Shrewsbury, the other starting at New St (are they 2 different trains)? as I see today they are both on platform 4 so is this a point where 2 units are combined / detached?

It sounds like the one that is combined.
 

duffield

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I thought that the initial report - that he "was not allowed into first class" even though he had a first class ticket must be wrong. Unless it is physically impossible to get in, you are always entitled to stand in first class if you have a first class ticket, even if there are no seats available.
The fact that it appears to be about seat availability (with possible reservation issues etc.) makes it much more complicated.
 

WesternLancer

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Which I am sure is true but how do you know the seats the OP thought were free were not in fact reserved for someone who has joined the train in a different part and is as they spoke moving towards their seats ?
I personally think this story has more holes than a Swiss cheese
for example the complainer claims that he was made to get on a different train
Exactly the point I made in my earlier post:

"The only direct quote would seem to be the TM saying "I can't guarantee you a seat" in 1st class - which may well be the case if the TM did or did not know the state of reservations, if Soweto had a walk up ticket with no reservation. Empty seats that may be reserved by people 2 minutes away from claiming their seats would mean such a seat could not be 'gauranteed' after all."
 

duncanp

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On an Avanti West Coast train from Birmingham to London, seats that are apparently free at New Street could be reserved by people boarding at Birmingham International or Coventry.

It also sounds like he had a First Class off peak return for £170, which would have been valid on the next train at 16:50, so why didn't he just get on that?
 

trebor79

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It also sounds like he had a First Class off peak return for £170, which would have been valid on the next train at 16:50, so why didn't he just get on that?
Perhaps he needed to be somewhere on time?
 

Starmill

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This is very difficult to understand.

If one has a First Class ticket, is the done thing not simply to get on the train and sit down in an available seat in First Class? Unless you need something else, that doesn't usually involve speaking to the train manager.

Of course, they might come over and speak to you, but if they did, and they said "I can't guarantee you a seat" I'd probably respond "Thank you, I'll take my chances."
 

Failed Unit

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A few things don’t add up to me. I don’t understand the relevance of rage - maybe a bit of Ali G going on.

But it sounds like he was close to missing the train, and was concerned about missing an interview.

1. Surely if he was that concerned about missing the train he would have arrived earlier (where he probably would have got a seat) - If the following train was not suitable then what would he have done if he missed it?
2. Trains get delayed. Odd he didn’t go for the 1610 to have a train spare so to speak.

It does highlight the problems 2x Voyagers cause. They have significantly less 1st seating then the Pendo. So he was a little unlucky to end up on one.
 

Starmill

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It does highlight the problems 2x Voyagers cause. They have significantly less 1st seating then the Pendo. So he was a little unlucky to end up on one.
Agreed this isn't great. At least now though customers with 1st tickets who don't get to sit are entitled to a part refund.
 

yorkie

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A few things don’t add up to me. I don’t understand the relevance of rage - maybe a bit of Ali G going on.

But it sounds like he was close to missing the train, and was concerned about missing an interview.

1. Surely if he was that concerned about missing the train he would have arrived earlier (where he probably would have got a seat) - If the following train was not suitable then what would he have done if he missed it?
Not always possible; many people boarding long distance trains at New St have made a connection from somewhere else.
2. Trains get delayed. Odd he didn’t go for the 1610 to have a train spare so to speak.
If you have a busy schedule it's not always possible to do this. But this isn't really relevant.
It does highlight the problems 2x Voyagers cause. They have significantly less 1st seating then the Pendo. So he was a little unlucky to end up on one.
Agreed; it sounds like the two FC coaches were not near each other which is quite normal on this route.

It's very difficult to form an opinion of this sort of incident, unless you are actually there.

Some Avanti TMs do behave in the most appalling manner; they do this to people of all ethnicities though so I can't see any real evidence of racism, though you cannot rule it out. I am not surprised to hear of someone being spoken to rudely by them. Clearly there was some sort f communication issue (misunderstanding?) and again some Avanti TMs are not good communicators, despite the person spec apparently requiring this.

I am NOT surprised to hear of the behaviour of the Avanti staff towards a customer and this is consistent with the poor behaviour exhibited on numerous occasions, regardless of the ethnicity of the passengers.
 

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I'm not sure I can see where the guard behaved badly here if everything is as quoted. He said he couldn't guarantee a seat in that coach (due to reservations, I guess) and suggested trying the other one. The other one was more full, but presuambly he didn't know that. He maybe said it a bit matter-of-factly as the passenger ran up at the last minute when he was about to dispatch with a load of luggage, but I can't see any suggestion of rudeness.

It is not traincrew's job to help with luggage (other than possibly for those with disabilities who can't handle a "normal" amount themselves as a result), you are only meant to take what you can carry, so he politely but firmly refused to do so. Indeed, the passenger had in excess of the allowed amount so could have been charged an AAA (Accompanied Animals and Articles) fare for one of them, though I bet he wasn't.

I fail to see any problem at all here, from what has been posted, other than that the person in the article seems to think, with no apparent evidence at all, that he was racist?
 

Starmill

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I think that 'Animals and Accompanied Articles' (AAA) supplements have actually been abolished now, but point taken.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think that 'Animals and Accompanied Articles' (AAA) supplements have actually been abolished now, but point taken.

What is done with someone with excess luggage now (other than "nothing" as is the norm), just refuse travel?

I do wonder how many of those were charged across the network in their last year of availability, though. I'd bet it was a single figure - possibly even a low one.
 

Merle Haggard

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The Avanti (presumably carried forward from Virgin) luggage restrictions are 'You can bring *One item of luggage that will fit on your lap *Two larger items of luggage, each not exceeding 30 x 70 x 90cm in size'. A rucksack, heavy suitcase and two saxophones might exceed that. It used to be the case that luggage had to be 'personal' i.e., clothes or for washing, precluding musical instruments but this might have changed since BR days.
The train involved seems to have been 1B68 1630 New St - Euston. That train is formed of a Voyager that arrives from Euston at 1543, later joined by another Voyager from Shrewsbury. I understand that the reason two 1630 departures are scheduled (1B68 and 1Z68) is for seat reservation reasons. With the Voyagers orientated as planned (and variations are shown on the Avanti website) with the first at the south end, the two firsts are separated by 4 standard class coaches, making the claimed necessity to reach first by walking past 4 standard coaches difficult to follow.
It is a fact that Voyagers have limited first class accommodation and this is not usually a problem as far as passengers with reservations go, but for the traveller with an open ticket there may be occasions when no seats are available. I've encountered that situation myself, but just accept it as unfortunate.
In my experience people who (legitimately) travel first class have a wide variety of ethnicity, standards of dress or even personal hygiene and I'm sure that anyone involved with the travelling public will have long given up any stereotypes of who might not have a first class ticket - even if they had them to start with.
 

WesternLancer

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This is very difficult to understand.

If one has a First Class ticket, is the done thing not simply to get on the train and sit down in an available seat in First Class? Unless you need something else, that doesn't usually involve speaking to the train manager.

Of course, they might come over and speak to you, but if they did, and they said "I can't guarantee you a seat" I'd probably respond "Thank you, I'll take my chances."
Guessing he got on at a door where the TM happened to be standing?
 

Failed Unit

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I have never sen anyone challenged for too much baggage, that would be an interesting discussion but people seem to accept airlines charging them excess or even more stupid people unpacking and re-packing at the airport to balance out the weights (40kg is 40kg so I don't get why the airlines done accept 17kg + 23kg - but can understand why they don't do 15kg + 25kg as people need to lift the heavy one)

Bikes often get turned away on EMR when they service is 153 operated, as the space on a train seems to be Passengers, Baggage, Bikes. But even then I have never seen the gaurd tell someone with 3 suitcases a Newark Northgate they can't travel, they would sooner leave passengers on the platform (but not the ones with all the suitcases)

Anyway I digress. It seems unfortunate. Was the gaurd unreasonable we will never know. Even if I had witnessed it personally my definition of unreasonable is different to somebody eleses.
 

WesternLancer

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Frankly I think we're talking about a busy guy, turns up, got to get to ITV studios by a time stated, has the v bad luck to get on a voyager with v limited 1st class at a busy time, meets a busy and maybe rather customer unfriendly staff member, see racism where it was not intended as no doubt faced racism across his life time as that is indeed a fact of life for many people.
 

trebor79

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Sounds like a storm in a teacup. My reading is the guard pointed out the train was busy and he might not get a seat. He refused the help with the chaps luggage, possibly because he was busy despatching the train given it was just about to depart?
Possibly he was a bit rude or short, but that doesn't necessarily make it some kind of racially aggravated incident.
 

talltim

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A few things don’t add up to me. I don’t understand the relevance of rage - maybe a bit of Ali G going on.

But it sounds like he was close to missing the train, and was concerned about missing an interview.

1. Surely if he was that concerned about missing the train he would have arrived earlier (where he probably would have got a seat) - If the following train was not suitable then what would he have done if he missed it?
2. Trains get delayed. Odd he didn’t go for the 1610 to have a train spare so to speak.
But you don’t know that he didn’t go for an earlier train to give himself some leeway and missed it
 

Failed Unit

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But you don’t know that he didn’t go for an earlier train to give himself some leeway and missed it

I don't but his acccount implies he didn't. Yes as Yorkie points out he could have came from a connection but he account implies he turned up to the 1630 just before it was due to depart.
 

AlterEgo

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Frankly I think we're talking about a busy guy, turns up, got to get to ITV studios by a time stated, has the v bad luck to get on a voyager with v limited 1st class at a busy time, meets a busy and maybe rather customer unfriendly staff member, see racism where it was not intended as no doubt faced racism across his life time as that is indeed a fact of life for many people.

Seems to be it in a nutshell.
 

Darandio

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Was the actual video of part of the incident only posted after this thread was started and many replies were made? As I cannot really see much reference to it.

What I see is the gentleman trying to board a train where he has seen a bay of seats available, the member of staff has said the carriage is fully reserved and directs him further down the train to another first class carriage. The gentleman doesn't seem to want to do this and talks about going to see Robert Peston. His account on Facebook then states he went to the next unit and saw a crowded standard class carriage and boarded it but didn't seem to go to the other first class part.
 

duncanp

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Perhaps he needed to be somewhere on time?

If he really needed to be somewhere on time, he should have made it his business to get to the station in time to catch the relevant train.

If he was delayed due to reasons outside his control, well that is unfortunate, but he shouldn't expect the train to be delayed to accommodate him.

As I said earlier, if he had an off peak ticket, it would have been valid on the 16:50, so he would only be about 20 minutes late into Euston. A simple phone call to the television studio should enable the interview to be re-arranged.
 
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