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Another Merseyrail capacity reduction

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prod_pep

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The latest capacity cut to hit the Merseyrail network is the withdrawal of the West Kirby line's peak-time 6 car services. This affects the 0806 and 1636 West Kirby - Liverpool - West Kirby circulars which have been reduced to 3 car. As far as I'm aware, the spare carriages will not be put to use elsewhere on the network.

Typically, the West Kirby line loses its 6 cars temporarily during leaf fall season to accommodate an additional train on the lengthened Chester - Liverpool - Chester circuit, but it appears that they will not return this year. All autumn they have repeatedly promised on Twitter that the West Kirby 6 cars will return once the Chester leaf fall timetable ends. It hasn't been pretty reading on Twitter for Merseyrail today and I'm sure the local press have already been made aware.

This is added to the loss of three additional peak time services on the busiest and most overcrowded Merseyrail line, Liverpool to Southport: the 0748 and 0803 Southport - Liverpool Central and 1713 Liverpool Central - Southport. The first of these was one of the most overcrowded services on the network before it was pulled in May 2018 to correspond with the opening of Maghull North station on the Ormskirk line.

I make that a total loss of 960 seats in peak hours since the May 2018 timetable change. Can any other rail network in the UK match that level of decline?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Is there a stock maintenance issue (i.e. having to cannibalise for spares) or are they just cost-cutting?

That said, I know they had to throw an extra unit into the Ormskirk diagrams for the opening of Maghull North, the running time is up to something like 35 minutes now (was 28 when it opened, I believe).
 

156420

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There are no spare carriages as a result. It will eventually reflect the change in going from 59 to 58 units.
 

M28361M

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I did read on another group that 508134 is due to be withdrawn in January, however I have no idea if the person posting this has insider knowledge or not.
 

MR-507508

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Why has 508134 been selected to be withdrawn-has it developed a particular fault?
It has been on Kirkdale depot since just before Christmas (to the best of my knowledge) and has not been in service so it looks like this is the plan for 134.
Anybody have any more information about 508134's withdrawal-will it remain on the depot or be sent back to Angel trains?
 

TheSel

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I understand it's a mileage-related issue. Due a heavy overhaul, but decision has been made not to spend any more than absolutely necessary to keep the remaining sets on the road until the 777s come on stream.

Farewell, 134:

508134 - Formby.jpg
 

MR-507508

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I understand it's a mileage-related issue. Due a heavy overhaul, but decision has been made not to spend any more than absolutely necessary to keep the remaining sets on the road until the 777s come on stream.

Farewell, 134:

View attachment 72808

It makes sense I guess and was only a matter of time. However, the exterior of 508134 is in pretty good condition compared to some of the other units.
I wasn't sure whether after delivering 777003 earlier this week, whether 134 would leave but I think it is still at Kirkdale.
Any other units on Merseryrail which could face the same fate before the 777's come into service?
Which of the current units do you think could be the first to face withdrawal once the new trains are introduced?
 

TheSel

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...
Any other units on Merseryrail which could face the same fate before the 777's come into service?
Which of the current units do you think could be the first to face withdrawal once the new trains are introduced?

Sorry - I don't have such detailed knowledge, but my guess is that this probably sets a precedent. Any major failure, or any more that reach their mileage quota must be strong candidates for the chop (providing enough can be kept going, of course!).
 

bramling

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Sorry - I don't have such detailed knowledge, but my guess is that this probably sets a precedent. Any major failure, or any more that reach their mileage quota must be strong candidates for the chop (providing enough can be kept going, of course!).

This isn’t really good enough for a fleet which already struggles to meet the timetable requirements, when there’s still a year to go before the new trains start entering service, and with plenty of similar 313, 314 and 315s going for scrap there should be plenty of spare parts available.

Seems like they have pushed the boat out to afford the new trains (themselves being pared down to an absolute minimum), and are needing to find ways to rob Peter to pay Paul.
 

156420

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Nothing to do with spare parts/failure related.

To do with mileage & heavy maintenance like any other fleet.
 

MR-507508

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Why cut the West Kirby 6 car though?
Yes, going from 59 to 58 units but this still leaves another 9 units not being used when the network is at fully capacity (during the evening peak-with 49 units in service).
Surely one of these 9 units could be used to form the West Kirby 6 car-as it only runs a few trips before heading back to the depot.
I doubt all 9 units not in use are undergoing maintenance, all at the same time.
 

prod_pep

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It amazes me how Merseyrail has always needed so many spares yet routinely fails to provide even the measly number of 6 cars there are currently. Maintenance levels are clearly nothing spectacular. The West Kirby 6 car was the least patronised of the paired workings across the network but it still requires the capacity, without a doubt.

Hornsey depot managed 41 of the 44 very similar 313 units in weekday service for years, and short-formings were a rare event. The weekday requirements for the 314 and 315 fleets were always significantly higher than the 507 and 508 fleets.
 

MR-507508

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I think it is mainly based on mileage restrictions. Also, now Stadler are responsible for maintaining the current fleet, I get the feeling they dictate to Merseyrail how many units are available for service each day, then Merseyrail have to work around that.
That said, I think there are times when they can reduce the mileage for the current fleet and better strengthen the peak time services.
For instance, when trains are strengthened to 6 cars on weekends for match days-the 6 cars often run throughout from the start of service for the majority of the day when really (besides christmas and summer) the 6 cars are only needed for a few trips (most certainly not of an evening). Why they can't couple and uncouple units on weekends like they do during the weekday-perhaps staffing levels of weekends (to perform the coupling and/or run the ECS from the depot)?
They also provide one of the additional services on the Ellesmere Port line (1733 from Moorfields). The unit providing this service runs empty from Birkenhead North depot (previously was West Kirby) to Moorfields, provides the passenger service to Ellesmere Port, then runs empty all the way back to West Kirby (around the loop) to couple to another unit, which then goes empty back to Kirkdale. Surely this is a wastage of mileage doing this everyday.
This may then free up units to use at peak time.
 

Class 170101

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This isn’t really good enough for a fleet which already struggles to meet the timetable requirements, when there’s still a year to go before the new trains start entering service, and with plenty of similar 313, 314 and 315s going for scrap there should be plenty of spare parts available.

How different are the Class 313s from the Class 507s / Class 508s? Could they not be used as they are released from the GN instead of being sent for scrap?
 

bramling

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I think it is mainly based on mileage restrictions. Also, now Stadler are responsible for maintaining the current fleet, I get the feeling they dictate to Merseyrail how many units are available for service each day, then Merseyrail have to work around that.
That said, I think there are times when they can reduce the mileage for the current fleet and better strengthen the peak time services.
For instance, when trains are strengthened to 6 cars on weekends for match days-the 6 cars often run throughout from the start of service for the majority of the day when really (besides christmas and summer) the 6 cars are only needed for a few trips (most certainly not of an evening). Why they can't couple and uncouple units on weekends like they do during the weekday-perhaps staffing levels of weekends (to perform the coupling and/or run the ECS from the depot)?
They also provide one of the additional services on the Ellesmere Port line (1733 from Moorfields). The unit providing this service runs empty from Birkenhead North depot (previously was West Kirby) to Moorfields, provides the passenger service to Ellesmere Port, then runs empty all the way back to West Kirby (around the loop) to couple to another unit, which then goes empty back to Kirkdale. Surely this is a wastage of mileage doing this everyday.
This may then free up units to use at peak time.

The answer is almost certainly that there aren’t staff around to attach or detach units, or more specifically to take the extra units from or to the depot / sidings. Weekend coverage tends to be as tight as possible, ultimately in order to keep staff happy.
 

156420

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It's Merseyrail who are liable, though, if it breaches their concession agreement. Their suppliers are their own concern.

Yes but don’t forget there’s nothing they can do without consulting Merseytravel first, it will all have been agreed.
 

Bikeman78

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The answer is almost certainly that there aren’t staff around to attach or detach units, or more specifically to take the extra units from or to the depot / sidings. Weekend coverage tends to be as tight as possible, ultimately in order to keep staff happy.
I think some units park up in the platform at West Kirby or New Brighton between the peaks. One pair splits to form two departures, the next pair arrives and parks up for the evening peak. If shunting units is a problem, keep them paired up all day. That's exactly what GTR did with the 313s and the off peak loads rarely justified six cars.
 

Bletchleyite

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If shunting units is a problem, keep them paired up all day. That's exactly what GTR did with the 313s and the off peak loads rarely justified six cars.

I must admit I was surprised that Merseyrail's new units are designed for pairing up. I'd have ordered 4 or 5x20m units (or Stadler equivalent) and stopped pairing up entirely. At busier times the frequency base could be increased from 15 to 10 minutes instead, or the interiors could have been designed for standees - the S-stock would have been ideal.
 

bramling

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I must admit I was surprised that Merseyrail's new units are designed for pairing up. I'd have ordered 4 or 5x20m units (or Stadler equivalent) and stopped pairing up entirely. At busier times the frequency base could be increased from 15 to 10 minutes instead, or the interiors could have been designed for standees - the S-stock would have been ideal.

The question is whether Merseyrail have ordered enough units to be able to do much meaningful pairing up.
 
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