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Southern Region late 1970s - class 73s and 47s

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Busaholic

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Afternoon everyone.
This is a bit of a thread bounce, but I’ve been trying to find photos of nighttime SR mail services which include a passenger vehicle, preferably 33 or 73 hauled. Not having a lot of luck though.
Does anyone know where might be a good site to try?
I remember being on Victoria station S.E. side, platform 2 from memory, in the early hours of the morning, getting on a train (or trying to, can't remember which!) loading up newspapers,I'm sure there was passenger accommodation. I'd either have been trying to get to Bromley South (1966-9), Beckenham Junc (1969-71) or Sittingbourne (1971-3).
 
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Cowley

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I remember being on Victoria station S.E. side, platform 2 from memory, in the early hours of the morning, getting on a train (or trying to, can't remember which!) loading up newspapers,I'm sure there was passenger accommodation. I'd either have been trying to get to Bromley South (1966-9), Beckenham Junc (1969-71) or Sittingbourne (1971-3).
I would have loved to have experienced that.
Such an everyday (night) scene back then that seems so remote now...
 

randyrippley

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randyrippley

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the only picture i can see is off a 71 at platform 7 at victoria on the eastern side taken off the end off platform 8 on the central side ??
you're right, my mistake, total brainfart
wasn't thinking as I typed. Error corrected
 

Snow1964

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There was also a daytime run (possibly in the summer only) which was 73 hauled (at least as far as Bournemouth) that went to Weymouth Quay (connected with a ferry). Remember seeing it passing my Sixth form college at Brockenhurst (so would have been 1982 or 1983)

The motor rail services from Brockenhurst (to Stirling) used 47s (think they were late 1970s and early 1980s)

The majority of Intercity cross country trains to Bournemouth area (via Reading) were 47s in 1970s, initially 47/0 and by early 1980s 47/4 as the mk1s were replaced by mk2b coaches. They used to change to 85s or 86s at Coventry (unless reversing at Birmingham New Street)
 

jfollows

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There was also a daytime run (possibly in the summer only) which was 73 hauled (at least as far as Bournemouth) that went to Weymouth Quay (connected with a ferry). Remember seeing it passing my Sixth form college at Brockenhurst (so would have been 1982 or 1983)

09:54 from Waterloo in the late 1970s, which I caught having first taken the 07:22 Macclesfield to Euston (arrive 09:33). Headcode '90' of course, called at Southampton and Bournemouth only, the latter to change engine as you say. On a nice day, time to wander round Weymouth, have some fish & chips, and come back on the return working. I think I only went all the way to Weymouth Quay once, on other occasions just using it for the novelty between London and Southampton (or Bournemouth).

At the time, passenger trains hauled by class 73 locomotives were very unusual, especially during daytime.

EDIT: Even for Weymouth, I did the journey on a normal Macclesfield-Weymouth day return, which was at a time day return tickets for long journeys were still sold.

EDIT: Add picture of 73140 (I think) at Bournemouth having replaced the 33 for the up afternoon journey on 25th. October 1980.
 

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randyrippley

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09:54 from Waterloo in the late 1970s, which I caught having first taken the 07:22 Macclesfield to Euston (arrive 09:33). Headcode '90' of course, called at Southampton and Bournemouth only, the latter to change engine as you say. On a nice day, time to wander round Weymouth, have some fish & chips, and come back on the return working. I think I only went all the way to Weymouth Quay once, on other occasions just using it for the novelty between London and Southampton.

At the time, passenger trains hauled by class 73 locomotives were very unusual, especially during daytime.

I didn't realise you could get a ticket to Weymouth Quay without getting a ferry journey
 

30907

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I remember being on Victoria station S.E. side, platform 2 from memory, in the early hours of the morning, getting on a train (or trying to, can't remember which!) loading up newspapers,I'm sure there was passenger accommodation. I'd either have been trying to get to Bromley South (1966-9), Beckenham Junc (1969-71) or Sittingbourne (1971-3).

Sittingbourne perhaps - the papers were still off Holborn in the 60s, and weren't booked to call at Beckenham or Bromley, even if they went that way (not sure they did, but I'd have to look!).

the only picture i can see is off a 71 at platform 7 at victoria on the eastern side taken off the end off platform 8 on the central side ??
Pedant mode: on 8, from 9 :)
 

big all

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Sittingbourne perhaps - the papers were still off Holborn in the 60s, and weren't booked to call at Beckenham or Bromley, even if they went that way (not sure they did, but I'd have to look!).


Pedant mode: on 8, from 9 :)
yes i was going through my memory bank and the track for 8 goes outside the central train shed and tucks back in so 9 has a bit off a barrier and is longer so probably taken before the point the barrier meets the train shed wall:D
 

randyrippley

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09:54 from Waterloo in the late 1970s, which I caught having first taken the 07:22 Macclesfield to Euston (arrive 09:33). Headcode '90' of course, called at Southampton and Bournemouth only, the latter to change engine as you say. On a nice day, time to wander round Weymouth, have some fish & chips, and come back on the return working. I think I only went all the way to Weymouth Quay once, on other occasions just using it for the novelty between London and Southampton (or Bournemouth).

At the time, passenger trains hauled by class 73 locomotives were very unusual, especially during daytime.

EDIT: Even for Weymouth, I did the journey on a normal Macclesfield-Weymouth day return, which was at a time day return tickets for long journeys were still sold.

EDIT: Add picture of 73140 (I think) at Bournemouth having replaced the 33 for the up afternoon journey on 25th. October 1980.

I have a feeling thats a substitute rake in that photo.....the three visible coaches are all mk1 vehicles and I'm sure that by then the two boat train sets were mainly mk2. Early mk2 coaches first appeared in the boat trains in the 1960s - from memory each set had two, marshalled in the middle.
 

Taunton

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The night time / early morning trains were newspaper trains, not mail trains. On the WofE mail was carried on any train - most formations had a GUV or full brake or similar at each end. Sometimes this was a six-wheeler or a Gresley pigeon van.
The "pigeon vans" still around then significantly post-dated Sir Nigel. Although numbered in the LNER series they were built in the mid 1950s at Stratford, probably some of the last vehicles built there.

Living near Canary Wharf in the late 1980s, something that puzzled me was a regular sound in the quiet at about 02.00 on Sunday (only) mornings, at a time before all the high-rise air conditioning plants gave the drone of nowadays. It was a couple of minutes of what was apparently a Sulzer under power. I thought for a while it was a Class 47 climbing out of Liverpool Street, to the north, but eventually tracked it down (separate story) to a Class 33 on a Sunday newspaper train coming through Greenwich.

It wasn't only Class 47s that worked freights through to the SR, I can recall a number of Class 45s as well at the same time working onto the SE division, seemingly with various aggregate trains to the Thames estuary depots from the Midland Main Line. These always seemed quite out of place coming through Sidcup or Barnehurst.
 
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randyrippley

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The "pigeon vans" still around then significantly post-dated Sir Nigel. Although numbered in the LNER series they were built in the mid 1950s at Stratford, probably some of the last vehicles built there........

As far as I can remember, the one I had a good look at was in the number sequence WxxxE (or possibly SxxxE), just three numbers and fairly low numbered in the 100's. Dunno if that fits a 1950 build
 

Helvellyn

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EDIT: Add picture of 73140 (I think) at Bournemouth having replaced the 33 for the up afternoon journey on 25th. October 1980.
Interesting formation behind the 73 of a RMB, a BCK but what is that third coach? Looks like another catering vehicle.
 

Taunton

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I have a feeling thats a substitute rake in that photo.....the three visible coaches are all mk1 vehicles and I'm sure that by then the two boat train sets were mainly mk2. Early mk2 coaches first appeared in the boat trains in the 1960s - from memory each set had two, marshalled in the middle.
Is that the right boat train ? I had thought the Southern Mk 2 coaches, their only ones, originally green, from the earliest build and First Class ones only, were formed into full rakes for the Southampton ocean liner boat trains, not those for Weymouth.
 

randyrippley

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Is that the right boat train ? I had thought the Southern Mk 2 coaches, their only ones, originally green, from the earliest build and First Class ones only, were formed into full rakes for the Southampton ocean liner boat trains, not those for Weymouth.
Weymouth certainly had them, I can remember as a kid seeing them from the beach. In the late 60's each rake had a pair of firsts (yellow roofline band) in the middle, and by the 70's there were more.
 

Snow1964

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There was a period, might have been 1970s, but possibly early 1980s where the Portsmouth-Cardiff trains were hauled by 31/4s (which had then been newly converted to electric heat). At some stage these changed to 33s (and I think they did a long circuit including Cardiff-Crewe). These survived until taken over by class 155 sprinters (2 car units, before later conversion to 153s), the Sprinter conversion would have been about 1988

By far the weirdest working which survived until end of 1970s was a summer Saturday holiday train remnant (only ran about 8 weeks each year in July-Aug) which ran from Cardiff or Bristol area via Yeovil to Weymouth, arriving lunchtime, then returning via Bournemouth, New Milton, Brockenhurst Southampton and Salisbury. Bristol used to put anything on it and one summer (1978 ? possibly 1977) managed to ride it from New Milton to Brockenhurst and it had a 46 hauling it. Only time I ever saw a peak on passenger service and got to ride behind it on the Southern. The unusual routing had probably been since the closure of the West Moors (Wimborne) - Salisbury line as books on that lines history mention these holiday trains in 1960s
 
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30907

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Interesting formation behind the 73 of a RMB, a BCK but what is that third coach? Looks like another catering vehicle.
Possibly a Mk2 First - profile looks right, and I think there's a cantrail stripe.
 

Deepgreen

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Possibly a Mk2 First - profile looks right, and I think there's a cantrail stripe.
Almost certainly - they were common on boat trains and I suspect there may be a door open which is disrupting the view of the near end of the coach. A very small number of Mk2a firsts were delivered to the SR in green livery in 1965.
 

alistairlees

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The "pigeon vans" still around then significantly post-dated Sir Nigel. Although numbered in the LNER series they were built in the mid 1950s at Stratford, probably some of the last vehicles built there.

Living near Canary Wharf in the late 1980s, something that puzzled me was a regular sound in the quiet at about 02.00 on Sunday (only) mornings, at a time before all the high-rise air conditioning plants gave the drone of nowadays. It was a couple of minutes of what was apparently a Sulzer under power. I thought for a while it was a Class 47 climbing out of Liverpool Street, to the north, but eventually tracked it down (separate story) to a Class 33 on a Sunday newspaper train coming through Greenwich.

It wasn't only Class 47s that worked freights through to the SR, I can recall a number of Class 45s as well at the same time working onto the SE division, seemingly with various aggregate trains to the Thames estuary depots from the Midland Main Line. These always seemed quite out of place coming through Sidcup or Barnehurst.
On the Southern, 45s also worked freights to Eastleigh (a Speedlink trip from Bristol or Westbury I think) quite regularly. Passenger-wise, they turned up on the Manchester - Brighton (return to Wolverhampton) quite frequently in the mid 1980s, as well as a Glasgow? to Newhaven Marine sleeper in the 1960s or 1970s. The ones going through Sidcup would have been going to Northfleet cement works (closed 2008, demolished 2010). On at least one occasion a 45 worked a Poole-bound passenger service from Reading southwards (probably to Eastleigh), and 46s also occasionally did Bristol - Weymouth turns in the early 1980s (and probably late 1970s).
 

eastwestdivide

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It wasn't only Class 47s that worked freights through to the SR, I can recall a number of Class 45s as well at the same time working onto the SE division, seemingly with various aggregate trains to the Thames estuary depots from the Midland Main Line. These always seemed quite out of place coming through Sidcup or Barnehurst.
There was a regular working, late 70s/early 80s, for a 45+47 combination on coal in HAAs to Northfleet cement works.
In my experience back then, the aggregates to Allington (nr Maidstone) and Hothfield (nr Ashford) were variously 47s, pairs of 33s, then later 56s as they got drafted in to the Westbury stone workings. Angerstein had a working with 33s and those bogie Brett/Murphy hoppers that worked out of Cliffe (nr Hoo Junction) to various locations.
Not to say that 45s didn't work aggregates trains there, but I've not seen any photos.
 

ChiefPlanner

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The Southern had no class 47's allocated directly to the region , but their crews obviously had wide knowledge of them in the days when we had a truly mixed traction railway. There was always a risk of an unbalanced working into the region , having the 47 "retained"....

Which explains why the odd 45 ran in , and gloriously on a few occasions , specials from Gloucester to Marchwood or Salisbury had class 20's in pairs deliberately allocated.
 
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I think that 47s may have got across on to the Southern on Portsmouth trains a lot earlier than is appreciated today as depicted in this photograph from 1964 at Salisbury. I do not know what train 1V14 is, but a Google search appears to show all 1V1x headcodes of the mid 1960s to be Portsmouth to Bristol/Cardiff trains. At that time I believe all of the Waterloo - Salisbury route was still 100% steam which would rule out a Waterloo - Exeter.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/6171258023/
 

hexagon789

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Interesting formation behind the 73 of a RMB, a BCK but what is that third coach? Looks like another catering vehicle.

According to the carriage working, the afternoon off Weymouth Quay (1530) was booked "8 RMB set" as indeed are all the booked workings from there.

According to the notes that consists of:
"Electrically heated; air braked - 2 SK, 1 TSO, 1 BCK, 1 FK, 1 RMB, 2 SK."

Looks as though the set has been shortened, the two leading SK missing and the BCK moved up. Or possibly it's just a spare set of coaches made up, rather than a regularly formed set with vehicles removed.
 

Taunton

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Which explains why the odd 45 ran in , and gloriously on a few occasions , specials from Gloucester to Marchwood or Salisbury had class 20's in pairs deliberately allocated.
I presume they brought their crews with them, the 45s possibly from Cricklewood, whose sets seemed to come through to here quite extensively. The returning 47-hauled Sunday excursion from Margate which overturned on the Eltham bend was I understand a Cricklewood crew.

There was always a risk of an unbalanced working into the region , having the 47 "retained"....
On the good old S&D, Bath Green Park shed were the past masters at this, keeping any good Black 5 that turned up after about Thursday afternoon in high summer on shed, and sending one of their 4Fs back on the return working. How else could they handle all those Summer Saturday extras?
 

ChiefPlanner

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I presume they brought their crews with them, the 45s possibly from Cricklewood, whose sets seemed to come through to here quite extensively. The returning 47-hauled Sunday excursion from Margate which overturned on the Eltham bend was I understand a Cricklewood crew.

Yes Cricklewood crews on the North Kent coal , and the ill-fated Margate was a "remote booking on" Hither Green crew......
 

Far north 37

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I presume they brought their crews with them, the 45s possibly from Cricklewood, whose sets seemed to come through to here quite extensively. The returning 47-hauled Sunday excursion from Margate which overturned on the Eltham bend was I understand a Cricklewood crew.

On the good old S&D, Bath Green Park shed were the past masters at this, keeping any good Black 5 that turned up after about Thursday afternoon in high summer on shed, and sending one of their 4Fs back on the return working. How else could they handle all those Summer Saturday extras?
Hither green driver and secondman involved in the accident at eltham.
 

Cowley

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I knew NSE got the 47/7s which were ex-ScotRail, obviously(!), hadn't realised you got some of our 47/4s as well!
Hexagon - Right I had a look through my old book yesterday and I’ve got things wrong somewhat. :oops:
What I was actually remembering was the 11:05 Brighton to Exeter which I covered many times that year and it was booked for a 47/4.
Alongside this Network Southeast had (I think) 47473, 47547 and 47587* on trial in 1987/88 on Waterloo - Exeter services.
I can tell you what 47s I had on that Brighton service that year but unfortunately not the dates as I’ve lost the book with them in.

(*All freshly repainted in large logo)
 
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