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Soweto Kinch was refused access to first-class carriage

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trebor79

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If he really needed to be somewhere on time, he should have made it his business to get to the station in time to catch the relevant train.

If he was delayed due to reasons outside his control, well that is unfortunate, but he shouldn't expect the train to be delayed to accommodate him.
Uh? At what point was it suggested the train should be delayed?
 
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island

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As in most cases, there are three sides to every story. His side, their side, and what actually happened.
 

WesternLancer

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If he really needed to be somewhere on time, he should have made it his business to get to the station in time to catch the relevant train.

If he was delayed due to reasons outside his control, well that is unfortunate, but he shouldn't expect the train to be delayed to accommodate him.

As I said earlier, if he had an off peak ticket, it would have been valid on the 16:50, so he would only be about 20 minutes late into Euston. A simple phone call to the television studio should enable the interview to be re-arranged.
don't think any of this is really the point he was trying to make - which was that he was treated in a 'racially discriminatory manner' because he perceived the guard would not let him take up empty seats because the guard was racist.
The Train Manager would in this case have done himself a favour by saying nowt when asked, standing to one side, letting Soweto sit in the empty seat (which he weirdly seemed to have time to film or snap) and letting the 1st class passengers who probably reserved it turf Soweto out when they go on at Bh'ham Intl or wherever.
 

voyagerdude220

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I really fail to see what the TM has supposedly done wrong.

Surely it would have been bad customer service, had the TM not said anything at all to the complainant, knowing that the front set was much quieter and presumably other people would be occupying the only unoccupied seats in the First Class carriage which the TM was stood inside at the time he spoke to the complainant.

He didn't refuse access. He simply directed the complainant to a much quieter area of the train.

It really annoys me when people unnecessarily bring race into things. How on earth was the TM racist?

I'd be very annoyed if I'd paid for a First Class ticket and didn't get a seat, regardless of whether I had made a reservation or not and surely the TM was helping the complainant by trying to avoid this from occurring.
 

WesternLancer

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I really fail to see what the TM has supposedly done wrong.

Surely it would have been bad customer service, had the TM not said anything at all to the complainant, knowing that the front set was much quieter and presumably other people would be occupying the only unoccupied seats in the First Class carriage which the TM was stood inside at the time he spoke to the complainant.

He didn't refuse access. He simply directed the complainant to a much quieter area of the train.

It really annoys me when people unnecessarily bring race into things. How on earth was the TM racist?

I'd be very annoyed if I'd paid for a First Class ticket and didn't get a seat, regardless of whether I had made a reservation or not and surely the TM was helping the complainant by trying to avoid this from occurring.
But didn't Soweto say the bit of the train he was directed to was in fact much fuller - or did he never make it to the other unit's 1st class seating area to check?
I share your view tho.
 

voyagerdude220

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But didn't Soweto say the bit of the train he was directed to was in fact much fuller - or did he never make it to the other unit's 1st class seating area to check?
I share your view tho.

I'm under the impression he didn't get to the other set, but I'm not sure.

I'd be surprised if the other carriage was equally busy, as it would have only been made available upon it being attached at Birmingham New Street, but of course I'm not saying it's impossible. I've no idea how busy the front set would usually be on that service.
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder if, as is often the case, the reservations had failed and so the guard didn't want unreserved passengers sat in there? Avanti (like XC) do apply the policy that reservations apply even when unmarked, unlike the standard with most TOCs that they don't.

Whatever was the case I can see no evidence whatsoever that the reason was in any way racist, so he is really doing himself a disservice by "crying wolf".
 

Darandio

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I'm under the impression he didn't get to the other set, but I'm not sure.

His Facebook account suggests he did go to the other set but boarded a crowded Standard carriage. He doesn't appear to have gone further down to the First Class carriage as suggested by the TM.
 

WesternLancer

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His Facebook account suggests he did go to the other set but boarded a crowded Standard carriage. He doesn't appear to have gone further down to the First Class carriage as suggested by the TM.
aha - thanks.
 

philthetube

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Not always possible; many people boarding long distance trains at New St have made a connection from somewhere else.

If you have a busy schedule it's not always possible to do this. But this isn't really relevant.

Agreed; it sounds like the two FC coaches were not near each other which is quite normal on this route.

It's very difficult to form an opinion of this sort of incident, unless you are actually there.

Some Avanti TMs do behave in the most appalling manner; they do this to people of all ethnicities though so I can't see any real evidence of racism, though you cannot rule it out. I am not surprised to hear of someone being spoken to rudely by them. Clearly there was some sort f communication issue (misunderstanding?) and again some Avanti TMs are not good communicators, despite the person spec apparently requiring this.

I am NOT surprised to hear of the behaviour of the Avanti staff towards a customer and this is consistent with the poor behaviour exhibited on numerous occasions, regardless of the ethnicity of the passengers.

These two statements are at odds with each other, and sorry to appear pedantic, though I don't feel |I am being, you have only heard of alleged poor behaviour, and not confirmed poor behaviour.
 

HSP 2

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On a similar line if you have a standard class ticket can you be refused access to a train through a first class door to go to standard class that is in the next coach through the corridor connecter. This did not involve going through the first class seating area.
This happened a bit back at Huddersfield when a TPE train had been cancelled and the next one was running late and formed the wrong way round.
No race issues in this one.
 

221129

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On a similar line if you have a standard class ticket can you be refused access to a train through a first class door to go to standard class that is in the next coach through the corridor connecter. This did not involve going through the first class seating area.
This happened a bit back at Huddersfield when a TPE train had been cancelled and the next one was running late and formed the wrong way round.
No race issues in this one.
Yes. You can.
 

HSP 2

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Is that yes you can get on? Or yes you can be refused entry?
If that is you can be refused entry, lets look at this your on time to get the train, the guard is at the back door (1st class) of a Pendo and your walking along the platform towards second class the lights start to flash do you run to the standard class to get on, no you just get on at the first door you can (or you miss the train and put a claim in).

Getting on the first class door next to second class at Huddersfield did help to get people off the platform a bit quicker and just walk along the train. On the train the bit that did slow it down was the first class passengers that were walking down the train to first class. Due to the train been formed the wrong way around. Along with passengers looking for the seat that has been reserved for them.

I have stood in the vestibule of first class coaches for years with no problem, I'm not taking up a seat nor trying to get a meal, I don't think that I'll infect a FIRST class passenger with scum bagitus. The bogs are the same as well.

It will be fun on the LNER AZUMAS at coach K stopping passengers getting in the FIRST class door when they have a seat reserved in the second class end (unless that is a coach with no reserved seats).

If a second class passenger is NOT allowed on a train via a first class door of any type then lock out the FIRST class from scum bag class on the train. Then the TTI (old term) can open the door to check the tickets between the classes.
 

Bletchleyite

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You may not board through a First Class door to go to Standard or alight from one, no. You may pass through First Class without stopping unnecessarily should it be needed to get to another part of Standard, e.g. the "ballroom" on 185s.

However, on TPE 350s and 185s there are no "First Class doors", the doors are all located in Standard. I guess this was an 80x or Mk5 set?
 

HSP 2

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IIRC it was a Mk5 set.

If the point is to stop people of the lower orders walking through First class it could be a good idea for the TOCs to inform the customers on the platform. All it will say is first class to the front Etc.
So if the second class door won't open and the next door is first class you can't get off from that door! and have to walk down the coach that is wedged to get off at the next second class door, and you end up at Euston due to that. What will RP think of that.
I'd love to see the appendix that says no second class passenger to use first class doors.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd love to see the appendix that says no second class passenger to use first class doors.

The rule is that you may not loiter in First Class. If alighting, it's difficult not to loiter while waiting for the doors to open. Boarding...well, that's a bit different, but if the train was full and standing it's unlikely they'd have been able to pass into Standard.
 

HSP 2

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So you may not stand around without apparent purpose in First class if your a second passenger. That is fair.

But how can you be loitering if your just getting onto the train?

It does not explain the fact that a member of staff (looked about 18 and 9 stone wet through, I've broken bigger men on a rugby pitch and I'm only 5'3" and over 60) was trying to stop people boarding the train via a first class door if they were not first class passengers. All people wanted to do was get on the train.
 

Bletchleyite

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So you may not stand around without apparent purpose in First class if your a second passenger. That is fair.

But how can you be loitering if your just getting onto the train?

It does not explain the fact that a member of staff (looked about 18 and 9 stone wet through, I've broken bigger men on a rugby pitch and I'm only 5'3" and over 60) was trying to stop people boarding the train via a first class door if they were not first class passengers. All people wanted to do was get on the train.

The Byelaw reads:

"19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place."

https://assets.publishing.service.g...attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

I can't entirely see why anyone boarding would be "remaining" therein, unless the train was so crowded that the member of staff felt there is no way they could get through and thus would have no choice but to do so[1]. The TOCs argue that on alighting you do "remain" while waiting at the door, this is primarily to stop people walking through and blocking the First Class doors at main termini.

[1] On some TOCs they would declassify well before it reached this point and people were left behind, but on TPE because the overcrowding problem has been going on for so many years they generally don't.
 

HSP 2

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The Byelaw reads:

"19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place."

Nothing in that bylaw that states that you can't board a train through a first class door.
All the fellow at Huddersfield would do is slow down people from getting on the train and make it latter than it was, I've checked my moves book and it was an 802. The other thing that they did on the train and not on the platform was announce that it was non stop from York to Newcastle missing out at least two stops.
 

greyman42

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So you may not stand around without apparent purpose in First class if your a second passenger. That is fair.

But how can you be loitering if your just getting onto the train?

It does not explain the fact that a member of staff (looked about 18 and 9 stone wet through, I've broken bigger men on a rugby pitch and I'm only 5'3" and over 60) was trying to stop people boarding the train via a first class door if they were not first class passengers. All people wanted to do was get on the train.
Is the member of staffs age and physical build relevant?
 

Tetchytyke

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It really annoys me when people unnecessarily bring race into things. How on earth was the TM racist?

Deliberately racist? Unlikely.

But racist? Very probably. Black people are often spoken to and treated differently to white people. A black person being assertive is more likely to be perceived as aggressive. Black people are more likely to be seen as a threat- especially young black men. I've seen it with my own eyes, black friends of mine getting hassle in a way I never do. Doorstaff not giving me a second glance but insisting on searching my friends, or train staff making a beeline to check their tickets in 1st class but then not even glancing at mine. We're all middle-aged University-educated people; the only noticeable difference is our skin tone.

There's a huge amount of psychology on it. Have a read.

This is why he originally didn't want to go into specifics- it's not about this one incident or this one TM- it's about what regularly happens at a societal level. And yes, it is about race.
 

HSP 2

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Is the member of staffs age and physical build relevant?

In this case I think that it is, due to his age he had little experience of how the real railway works he also had little or no "force" in his words to the passengers. as I have mentioned I'm not a big guy I'm about 5' 3" and about 13 1/2 stone. Not a big guy in any way.
As he was on the train he was also about a foot above me, at no time did he ask to be let onto the platform to release the train.
So all I did was say would you let me on the train and then walked on.
 

packermac

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IIRC it was a Mk5 set.

If the point is to stop people of the lower orders walking through First class it could be a good idea for the TOCs to inform the customers on the platform. All it will say is first class to the front Etc.
So if the second class door won't open and the next door is first class you can't get off from that door! and have to walk down the coach that is wedged to get off at the next second class door, and you end up at Euston due to that. What will RP think of that.
I'd love to see the appendix that says no second class passenger to use first class doors.
Well at Southampton Central back in November when SWR were disrupted and telling everyone for Brockenhurst and Bournemouth to board the XC the TM, and I assume someone who was the catering lady, were physically prohibiting people from using the First Class door to speed the boarding. Although I doubt there were many (any?) actually First Class passengers they would have been blocked as well as there was not even an "only First Class passengers" comment made.
 

stuartl

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The last time I got on a XC train (Dec2019) with a first class ticket they were asking people trying to board at the first class door if they had a first class ticket. First time I'd ever seen that.
 
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