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GWR Dec 19 timetable

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irish_rail

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Could this possibly have been solved when the DfT proposed a separate franchise for the West of England?
I doubt that there would be too many short forms if this route were part of a separate franchise - more likely we would have refurbished HST's lengthend to 9 coaches like East Coast had. It also would present it's own challenges as a stand alone franchise .
Yes I've mixed feelings on this one. If the separate franchise could be given a decent proportion of 9 car 802s then I think , with hindsight it would of been a good thing for the wofe route, as running full length trains as quick as possible would of been top priority.
Instead, we are stuck with the 5 cars and questionable paths and journey times. 10 minute waits at Plymouth are not exactly conducive to reducing journey times between Cornwall and London. Similarly there is still bags of recovery time on the b and h or sat at Reading whilst other services are prioritised.
 
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gaillark

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Yes I've mixed feelings on this one. If the separate franchise could be given a decent proportion of 9 car 802s then I think , with hindsight it would of been a good thing for the wofe route, as running full length trains as quick as possible would of been top priority.
Instead, we are stuck with the 5 cars and questionable paths and journey times. 10 minute waits at Plymouth are not exactly conducive to reducing journey times between Cornwall and London. Similarly there is still bags of recovery time on the b and h or sat at Reading whilst other services are prioritised.

I've been on short forms on this route. Not pleasant. Worse still these "things" 5 cars are not suitable for Pullman dining operation. Coming from Truro to London last time if you want to eat you need to change trains! Also too many instances where 10 cars do run that there is no catering in one of the units. Not great customer service and range of food now available is very poor even in first class.
Yes I do believe some journey times could have been cut by 10 mins under a separate franchise.
 

gaillark

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Where would the extra stock for weekends / Newquay in the Summer come from if there was a separate South West franchise?

You hire some from another TOC like XC do. Could have been contracted to do so as part of franchise agreement. Not saying it would be perfect but doable.
 

JN114

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The paths are the paths - and they’d have been the same whether part of the integrated franchise or a separate one. That’s where the gaps on the graph are, and the basic pattern has been locked in long before splitting Cornwall Trains into a separate operator was thought of. Splitting off the WoE services would have given what was left of GWR more reason and clout to prioritise the Bristols and South Wales services, not less.

It may have been able to make more of a case for 9 car ops, but as is oft repeated the choice was 9 cars or higher frequency. Would Cornwall’s own railway company been able to get away with prioritising the London services (politically) over the local services the splitting of the franchise was supposed to deliver improvement for?

Long term, I agree that more 9 cars is probably the optimum solution - and no I don’t think introducing a 3rd, interim length like 6, 7 or 8 car is a viable solution. Although it comes with the caveat of being careful what you wish for. Being of the operations breed I’m relatively fond of the flexibility 5+5 offers for when things go wrong - as often does. I’d still much rather run a train - of any stock type - and at least make an effort to spread the load than throw all my eggs in one basket and have to deal with 200% loadings when the first of my fixed-formation 9 cars fails.

Short term Hitachi need to up their game, massively - and probably us in control as well. As CY and others correctly allude to short forms on WoE services is principally down to start of day balance. If there isn’t the right mix of sets at Laira and Long Rock at the start of the day then it isn’t going to be a good day. I’m not sure there is a big enough fleet to provide spares at Long Rock, but there should be enough to delete one of the spare/standby sets from North Pole and stick it at Laira, or if Hitachi don’t want it sat on depot all day bring it off early doors and stick it in Park Sidings as a standby unit all day. It can then be the booked attachment for the 1815 up or whatever - not the worst in the world to short-form if it gets used.
 

Thunderer

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Why do people think that GWR have an underlying conspiracy to short-form services? Bloody hell...

The 5v10’s are due to late running of the South Wales’s as Badminton had just re-opened this morning, and now there’s a metal plate on the OLE and of course the Dawlish hullaballoo: 1A81 had all of its engines cut out and had to be rescued, and 2T15 (143603) had its windows blown out on the back set by sea waves!
_110539817_99522eef-672f-4bc8-bf02-39428d322a67.jpg


FYI, one 5v10 is because 1A87 was cancelled, so 1L80 split at PAD, with 5 cars forming 1B26 1717 to Cardiff and the other 5 forming 1C25 1730 to Taunton.
I asked the question, not suggested a conspiracy. Thanks for explaining what went on that day, much appreciated.
 

jimm

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So you have explained the reason for the problem, but what is the solution?. Do we just keep bumbling along, consistently short forming daily long distance trains ( 10.15 pz to padd seems a favourite despite being a very busy one). Surely we cannot just go on this happening as come Easter and onwards you will get people standing for 2 , 3 hours plus. All the while Bristol gets 4 tph many of which run half empty. Surely priorities are wrong here.....

First we had 'regular', now it is 'consistently' - words hinting at exactly the same thing. That short-forming is happening day in, day out, on lots of IET services. Where are your figures then?

Tally on Journeycheck* so far today is a single working - 06.04 Penzance to Paddington, due to what looks like lack of a second set to couple on at Plymouth - perhaps indicating that a lot of hard work was put in behind the scenes late yesterday and overnight by people at GWR and Hitachi to unscramble the effects of all the disruption there was in various places, due to the weather over the past couple of days.

*Before anyone says it, yes, there there may be others missing from the list, but then there have also been times when it has been showing five vice 10 when this was not the case, or a nine-car was working the diagram instead.

Frankly, the Portsmouth-Cardiff services seem to suffer far more consistently from short-forming at the moment - the sooner some 769s reach GWR the better, so that Bristol gets the extra Turbos it clearly needs.

Could this possibly have been solved when the DfT proposed a separate franchise for the West of England?
I doubt that there would be too many short forms if this route were part of a separate franchise - more likely we would have refurbished HST's lengthend to 9 coaches like East Coast had. It also would present it's own challenges as a stand alone franchise .

And I expect we would then have been treated here to years of complaints from people in the South West about how they were being cruelly forced to ride in creaking and rusting 40-odd-year-old HSTs (that had returned from overhaul and updating many months late), while everything else at Paddington was worked by shiny new electric and bi-mode trains...
 

WelshBluebird

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If it is so 'regular' then could you, or anyone else, tell us what the average percentage of GWR HSS services being short-formed on a daily basis is?

I won't be holding my breath, because all we have ever got, before the IETs were introduced and since they entered service, is lots of predictions and assertions and precious little by way of actual evidence/figures/statistics from any of you.

As Clarence Yard puts it, there is no sign of an epidemic - and following the diagrams through some days, it is clear that where a 5-car is running on its own, some are deliberately placed on diagrams that involves contra-peak workings to keep them away from Paddington at the busiest times of the day.

For the umpteenth time, short-forming happened in the good old days when the supply of HSTs ran out at Paddington and Thames Valley/Oxford/Cotswold trains ended up with whatever else could be begged, borrowed or short-formed to plug the gaps, including a Hull Trains 180 getting a run out to Worcester on one occasion, or two-car 165s to Hereford instead of HSTs.

I didn't say it was regular at all. I said it was more regular than what was promised by GWR and assured by various people on this forum. I'll remind you what that was - that all peak IEP services out of Paddington would be 9 or 10 car. That is clearly not happening. It doesn't matter if it isn't daily, it is clearly happening more than it should based on the reports here (hell, even people like Clarence Yard are admitting it is happening more than planned!).

I will repeat. If you don’t put the right units into Laira, Long Rock or Maliphant in the evening, you won’t get the right ones out in the morning. That’s the overriding reason for short forms on both the the West of England’s and South Wales routes since December. It isn’t an epidemic but it is more than is desirable, usually about 2 diagrams a day, today was 5 diagrams at start of play.

Spare units off maintenance or repair tend to come off North Pole or Stoke Gifford so the normal procedure is to short form from the first up working and then add or swap to booked formation later in the diagram, if a unit is available.

When the infrastructure gives out and the service goes to pot, it gets very difficult for Control to juggle the service with the contractual matrix because if you have to put the “wrong” sets into the country depots or stabling points at night, then you are chasing your tail again the following day.

Thanks to all the infrastructure problems, the past few days have been very trying for everyone.

So this is more of a byproduct of the contracts? That doesn't exactly sound great! I appreciate that infrastructure issues can be a nightmare, and it is right that GWR don't get unfair blame there.
But if we are seeing more disruption and short forms than what there should be just because of the way the contracts for the units have been done, then that is a joke (and yes, I realise that GWR aren't the main people to blame there either - but it doesn't make it less of a joke).

First we had 'regular', now it is 'consistently' - words hinting at exactly the same thing. That short-forming is happening day in, day out, on lots of IET services. Where are your figures then?

Tally on Journeycheck* so far today is a single working - 06.04 Penzance to Paddington, due to what looks like lack of a second set to couple on at Plymouth - perhaps indicating that a lot of hard work was put in behind the scenes late yesterday and overnight by people at GWR and Hitachi to unscramble the effects of all the disruption there was in various places, due to the weather over the past couple of days.

*Before anyone says it, yes, there there may be others missing from the list, but then there have also been times when it has been showing five vice 10 when this was not the case, or a nine-car was working the diagram instead.

Frankly, the Portsmouth-Cardiff services seem to suffer far more consistently from short-forming at the moment - the sooner some 769s reach GWR the better, so that Bristol gets the extra Turbos it clearly needs.

Again, nobody is saying the "short-forming is happening day in, day out, on lots of IET services". What we are saying is that it is happening more than what were were assured, despite our thoughts at the time suggesting what has happened would happen.
And yes, we realise there are infrastructure issues and weather issues etc. But given it was GWR who were assuring us that all IEP services out of Paddington in the peak would be 9/10 car, surely it should be them explaining why that sometimes is not happening? Especially if people like Clarence Yard are right when saying its partly things like contracts that are to blame too.

As for Portsmouth - Cardiff, I kind of agree. It is defo getting better since before Xmas though, at least in my experience. There was a period around November - December where I could pretty much guarantee a few of the trains I got would be a 2 car 158 or 165, rather than the 5 car 165+166 they were booked for. That is less regular now, and if it does happen a 3 car 166 usually is used rather than a 2 car unit.
 
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HowardGWR

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I didn't say it was regular at all. I said it was more regular than what was promised by GWR and assured by various people on this forum. I'll remind you what that was - that all peak IEP services out of Paddington would be 9 or 10 car. That is clearly not happening. It doesn't matter if it isn't daily, it is clearly happening more than it should based on the reports here (hell, even people like Clarence Yard are admitting it is happening more than planned!).



So this is more of a byproduct of the contracts? That doesn't exactly sound great! I appreciate that infrastructure issues can be a nightmare, and it is right that GWR don't get unfair blame there.
But if we are seeing more disruption and short forms than what there should be just because of the way the contracts for the units have been done, then that is a joke (and yes, I realise that GWR aren't the main people to blame there either - but it doesn't make it less of a joke).



Again, nobody is saying the "short-forming is happening day in, day out, on lots of IET services". What we are saying is that it is happening more than what were were assured, despite our thoughts at the time suggesting what has happened would happen.
And yes, we realise there are infrastructure issues and weather issues etc. But given it was GWR who were assuring us that all IEP services out of Paddington in the peak would be 9/10 car, surely it should be them explaining why that sometimes is not happening? Especially if people like Clarence Yard are right when saying its partly things like contracts that are to blame too.

As for Portsmouth - Cardiff, I kind of agree. It is defo getting better since before Xmas though, at least in my experience. There was a period around November - December where I could pretty much guarantee a few of the trains I got would be a 2 car 158 or 165, rather than the 5 car 165+166 they were booked for. That is less regular now, and if it does happen a 3 car 166 usually is used rather than a 2 car unit.
All through your posting you use the word 'regular' when you mean 'frequent'. There is a huge difference in the meaning of these two words. New Years Eve is regularly celebrated on Dec 31, so not very often!
What I am trying to point out is that we have few data on just how frequently, shortforming is occuring.

Edited -wrong month -whoops! Hubris at work :oops:
 
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Mag_seven

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More problems with Class 802s splitting and joining at Plymouth today. From GWR journey check:

10:15 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29
10:15 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29 will be terminated at Reading.
It will no longer call at London Paddington.
It has been delayed at Plymouth and is now 36 minutes late.
This is due to a fault occurring when attaching a part of this train.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10 from Plymouth.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Technically it is Park Siding (singular) as although there appear to be two roads, one has been signed out of use for some time and is due to be lifted in the near future.
 

jimm

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I didn't say it was regular at all. I said it was more regular than what was promised by GWR and assured by various people on this forum. I'll remind you what that was - that all peak IEP services out of Paddington would be 9 or 10 car. That is clearly not happening. It doesn't matter if it isn't daily, it is clearly happening more than it should based on the reports here (hell, even people like Clarence Yard are admitting it is happening more than planned!).

Again, nobody is saying the "short-forming is happening day in, day out, on lots of IET services". What we are saying is that it is happening more than what were were assured, despite our thoughts at the time suggesting what has happened would happen.
And yes, we realise there are infrastructure issues and weather issues etc. But given it was GWR who were assuring us that all IEP services out of Paddington in the peak would be 9/10 car, surely it should be them explaining why that sometimes is not happening? Especially if people like Clarence Yard are right when saying its partly things like contracts that are to blame too.

As for Portsmouth - Cardiff, I kind of agree. It is defo getting better since before Xmas though, at least in my experience. There was a period around November - December where I could pretty much guarantee a few of the trains I got would be a 2 car 158 or 165, rather than the 5 car 165+166 they were booked for. That is less regular now, and if it does happen a 3 car 166 usually is used rather than a 2 car unit.

GWR did not promise that each and every train into Paddington in the morning peak or back out in the afternoon peak would without fail always be a 2x5 or a nine-car, which appears to be your interpretation of the meaning of their statement.

The plan is for short-forming, for whatever reason, not to happen at all.

But we don't live in a perfect world. Stuff happens, like HSTs breaking down in the good old days when all was supposedly well, all the time. A short-formed service will have to operate sometimes, due to one set not being available or train management systems refusing to talk to each other once sets are coupled. Or crew issues, or any number of other potential pitfalls.

What was said on this forum focused around the over-the-top reaction from some quarters when there were some problems in the early days of IET coupling moves at Swansea and then Plymouth and how this meant doing it was clearly impossible and should never be attempted again.

But lo and behold, the frequency of coupling issues appears to have indeed dropped, despite it being done much more frequently since December 16, with Oxford and Bristol added to the places where coupling now happens with trains in service.
 

Goldfish62

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More problems with Class 802s splitting and joining at Plymouth today. From GWR journey check:
This is particularly painful for all concerned when it happens because it means that the passengers from Cornwall have to move to the front unit, which already has passengers from Plymouth on it.
 

HowardGWR

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Central Park, I would've thought. Or Ford Park? Home Park is quite a distance away...
Well, the football ground is, but Home Park itself actually stretches, including allotments, right down to the railway. Have a look at the map
 

Rich McLean

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Central Park contains Barn Park, Ford Park, Home Park and Harpers Park, all of which are collectively joined up together.

But we're drifting slightly off topic here.......

Not that many diagrams short formed today. One bristol circuit and the 1203 Pad - Penzance.
 

squizzler

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It's a Tuesday. I am on the 0853 fast Bristol Temple meads to Paddington that stops only at Parkway having started at Temple meads. Leaving temple meads there were five people in the entire carriage !!

I watched the 0830 ' slow' service to Paddington leave Temple Meads having come from Taunton, the train I used to use before the time changes. It was full and standing and still has to stop at Bath, Chippenham, Swindon, Didcot, Reading. The earlier train arrives in paddington 13 minutes before this one. I know which one I would rather be on for the sake of 13 minutes :) .
It is all good and well having a high performance timetable using the full capabilities of infrastructure and trains, but perhaps in this case it has exceeded the ability of the BR era ticketing system to send customers the price signals as to which train they need to be on. The operational sophistication needs to be matched with an equally sophisticated fares system to guide people into the less busy trains. That is why I am all for fares reform.
 

Gareth4949

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I will be travelling from Brighton to Bristol on the 18th Feb , I want to avoid over 3 hours on a turbo , Does anyone know if it will still be a class 158 next month

if there is a chance it might be a 165 I’ll travel via london instead rather than direct
 

kentrailman

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It is all good and well having a high performance timetable using the full capabilities of infrastructure and trains, but perhaps in this case it has exceeded the ability of the BR era ticketing system to send customers the price signals as to which train they need to be on. The operational sophistication needs to be matched with an equally sophisticated fares system to guide people into the less busy trains. That is why I am all for fares reform.
Actually, I think people have worked it out. The honeymoon period is over. Am on 1547'super' fast from paddington to weston at the moment and it is well full. Not standing but full.
Reminds me of when I went on the very first kent high speed trains from ashford, they were almost empty .. And now they are nearly all full and standing at nearly every time of day. It takes a while but people work it out.
 

kentrailman

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Grrr.. I had not noticed until now ( at temple meads) this train is timed to sit at temple meads for twelve minutes before it leaves. What's the flamin' point of going fast non stop to bristol then sitting there for nearly a quarter of an hour before going on.
Of course the point is not paying delay repay claims and having lots of catch up time. ( and letting a cross country train overtake). But this is somewhat annoying.
 

HowardGWR

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Grrr.. I had not noticed until now ( at temple meads) this train is timed to sit at temple meads for twelve minutes before it leaves. What's the flamin' point of going fast non stop to bristol then sitting there for nearly a quarter of an hour before going on.
Of course the point is not paying delay repay claims and having lots of catch up time. ( and letting a cross country train overtake). But this is somewhat annoying.
Didn't you know? They've forgotten that the adjacent GPO offices are demolished, as in the time when nearly all trains at TM paused that long to unload and load the mail. :)
 

cactustwirly

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Actually, I think people have worked it out. The honeymoon period is over. Am on 1547'super' fast from paddington to weston at the moment and it is well full. Not standing but full.
Reminds me of when I went on the very first kent high speed trains from ashford, they were almost empty .. And now they are nearly all full and standing at nearly every time of day. It takes a while but people work it out.

How was the pathing? Did you get held up by other services around Reading & Swindon?
 

kentrailman

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How was the pathing? Did you get held up by other services around Reading & Swindon?
Yes, sped fast through reading but stopped for a few minutes just before Swindon then crawled through Swindon station .. But still arrived temple meads on time to sit there for a quarter of an hour as timetabled !
Interesting guard announcement as we came in to bristol parkway ' for those of you needing a train going back on yourself here, the next train back to Swindon and reading departs from platform ..'
Oops .. Not everyone has ' got it' yet !
 

Ianno87

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Grrr.. I had not noticed until now ( at temple meads) this train is timed to sit at temple meads for twelve minutes before it leaves. What's the flamin' point of going fast non stop to bristol then sitting there for nearly a quarter of an hour before going on.

Because there is much more value in getting to Bristol fast as that benefits the majority of passengers....?
 

berneyarms

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Grrr.. I had not noticed until now ( at temple meads) this train is timed to sit at temple meads for twelve minutes before it leaves. What's the flamin' point of going fast non stop to bristol then sitting there for nearly a quarter of an hour before going on.
Of course the point is not paying delay repay claims and having lots of catch up time. ( and letting a cross country train overtake). But this is somewhat annoying.

I think that you'll find that the point is a combination of:
- Getting the majority of passengers (who are going to Bristol) to their destination quickly
- Not running into the rear of the all stations service that departs Bristol Temple Meads for Taunton at 16:53
- Allowing the cross country service take its path south
- Doubling up as a commuter service out of Bristol to Weston-super-Mare serving three intermediate stations
 
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