Northern agrees deal with Aslef to ease weekend train cancellations

Tim33160 · 18 Jan 2020

Northern agrees deal with Aslef to ease Blackpool's weekend train cancellations nightmare
from 26th January

https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/...kend-train-cancellations-nightmare-1-10207730

Northern has confirmed that a resolution has been found with train union Aslef from January 26. Details of the deal have not been released but staff voted 57 per cent to accept the deal.

A Northern spokesman said: “We welcome our drivers voting in favour of this new proposal. We are now implementing all the elements of the proposal which will include items that will see a more resilient Sunday service, on the small number of routes that have seen cancellations.

“We have worked with driver’s representatives for over eighteen months to develop this plan and this is only the first steps on our journey towards improved and more resilient ways of working.”

A union spokesman said: “Aslef has agreed to introduce a productivity arrangement with Arriva Rail North (Northern) that will provide more drivers available.”

RailUK Forums

gc4946 · 19 Jan 2020

I guess this agreement relates to the ex-RRNW/First North Western staff whose agreements differed from those of RRNE/Northern Spirit employees who work Sundays as an integral day of week on their roster.
I hope this will speed up the implementation of more Sunday trains in the NW ... I look forward to a Leeds-Chester service on Sundays from May!

WatcherZero · 19 Jan 2020

Sadly come too late for Arriva.

scrapy · 19 Jan 2020

gc4946 said:
I guess this agreement relates to the ex-RRNW/First North Western staff whose agreements differed from those of RRNE/Northern Spirit employees who work Sundays as an integral day of week on their roster.
I hope this will speed up the implementation of more Sunday trains in the NW ... I look forward to a Leeds-Chester service on Sundays from May!

The agreement is with a view to bringing Sundays within the working week by end 2021. It is unlikely new services will start in May or before Dec 2021 as the agreement specifies a maximum number of Sundays in links and it is unlikely this will cover new services just provide a guarantee of more cover for existing ones hopefully ending planned cancellations from 26th January.

I would hope the requirements of the invitation to tender would be met such as the hourly services on the Stoke and Mid Cheshire lines are prioritised before services like Leeds to Chester where the stations on the route are already served at least hourly by other services on Sundays.

Xenophon PCDGS · 19 Jan 2020

WatcherZero said:
Sadly come too late for Arriva.

Would any future franchise operator still have this agreement accepted?

jopsuk · 19 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Would any future franchise operator still have this agreement accepted?

if it gets incorporated into contracts then definitely, as TUPE would apply.

gray1404 · 20 Jan 2020

Good luck trying to get the Liverpool depot to agree to have Sunday as part of the working week.

Xenophon PCDGS · 20 Jan 2020

gray1404 said:
Good luck trying to get the Liverpool depot to agree to have Sunday as part of the working week.

Is Sunday seen as something of a special day of the week in the Liverpool area by all areas of employment, industrial, commercial, retail and otherwise?

Or is that the price paid for having two cathedrals... :lol:

Bellbell · 20 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Is Sunday seen as something of a special day of the week in the Liverpool area by all areas of employment, industrial, commercial, retail and otherwise?

Or is that the price paid for having two cathedrals...

Sunday is seen as 'a special day of the week' in a huge number of industries across the country, not only in Liverpool. Strange question.

Xenophon PCDGS · 20 Jan 2020

Bellbell said:
Sunday is seen as 'a special day of the week' in a huge number of industries across the country, not only in Liverpool. Strange question.

The mention of "Sunday in Liverpool" that I commented upon did not seem to unduly bother those football players of Liverpool FC who turned out yesterday (Sunday) to play against Manchester United.

Mag_seven · 20 Jan 2020

Bellbell said:
Sunday is seen as 'a special day of the week' in a huge number of industries across the country, not only in Liverpool. Strange question.

Agree that offices and factories are shut down but transport is a service and should be fully manned on a Sunday.

Tetchytyke · 20 Jan 2020

gray1404 said:
Good luck trying to get the Liverpool depot to agree to have Sunday as part of the working week.

They just did?

Of course an ASLEF agreement is only way there.

Llama · 20 Jan 2020

The negotiations for Sunday inside the working week are yet to begin.

What has been agreed so far is an 'amended and cancelled turn' agreement for Sundays for ex-FNW drivers, and other bits affecting the two other sets of drivers which don't concern Sundays, but for ex-FNW drivers Sundays are still very much outside the working week for now.

Bellbell · 20 Jan 2020

Xenophon PCDGS said:
The mention of "Sunday in Liverpool" that I commented upon did not seem to unduly bother those football players of Liverpool FC who turned out yesterday (Sunday) to play against Manchester United.

I don't think football matches are limited to Liverpool. I'm not really sure why you're implying, by singling out Liverpool, that it's any different there to elsewhere in the country.

Mag_seven said:
Agree that offices and factories are shut down but transport is a service and should be fully manned on a Sunday.

The issue of Sunday services has been discussed many times on here and I didn't want to ignite the discussion on this thread, as it is OT. I was pointing out that whatever does or does not happen on a Sunday is not unique to Liverpool.

underbank · 20 Jan 2020

Mag_seven said:
Agree that offices and factories are shut down but transport is a service and should be fully manned on a Sunday.

Even some offices and factories open on Sundays these days. Call centres are usually 7 day operations now. There are even professional firms (solicitors, accountants, etc) who have a skeleton staff working on Sundays. Lots of factories work 7 days, if not 24/7, especially food/drink manufacturers with production lines as the produce is required for the normal shopping day Monday. Shops have been open Sundays for a couple of decades. Sunday isn't special anymore. And yes, public transport should be providing a good, comprehensive service, maybe not as regular as a week day, but should still be capable of moving people around throughout the day in a reasonable convenient manner, i.e. maybe an hourly service instead of half hourly.

underbank · 20 Jan 2020

Bellbell said:
I don't think football matches are limited to Liverpool. I'm not really sure why you're implying, by singling out Liverpool, that it's any different there to elsewhere in the country.

I think the point is that another poster specifically mentioned Liverpool train drivers as if there's something special/different about them.

Bellbell · 20 Jan 2020

underbank said:
I think the point is that another poster specifically mentioned Liverpool train drivers as if there's something special/different about them.

Sure, I got that. But asking if Liverpool views Sunday aas a special day of the week across 'all areas of employment' when the entire country treats it as a special day of the week is an odd way of asking whether Liverpool based Northern drivers have a particular issue with their Sundays.

Xenophon PCDGS · 20 Jan 2020

Bellbell said:
I don't think football matches are limited to Liverpool. I'm not really sure why you're implying, by singling out Liverpool, that it's any different there to elsewhere in the country.

I only referred to Liverpool as someone mentioned a Liverpool rail depot in a posting.

Economist · 20 Jan 2020

Some depots/TOCs are more militant and/or have a stronger union than others. I'm not necessarily in favour of selling out T&Cs for cash but if the TOC really wants Sundays, I wonder if ASLEF could "do a Thameslink" in the north?

SlimJim1694 · 20 Jan 2020

I think the implication was that Liverpool depot is perhaps more militant than others so there would be more resistance among staff there. Once they get Sundays in they will ramp the service up to Saturday levels and be pulling drivers in for two out of every three Sundays before they know it. Sundays are inside the week at my TOC and we work loads of them with rest days spread all around the week. I don't blame any driver, from Liverpool or anywhere else, who doesn't want Sundays.

Robertj21a · 20 Jan 2020

It's always a mystery to me why a TOC doesn't use updated Terms & Conditions (including Sundays, or whatever, as necessary) for all new recruits. At least that would, eventually, ease the situation for all concerned.
No doubt I'll be told that the Unions would never allow it......

156420 · 20 Jan 2020

If you actually look at the planned cancellations on a Sunday;

The Liverpool-Manchester Airport service has suffered quite a bit, but it’s actually 50/50 Liverpool & Manchester Piccadilly traincrew work.

Wigan- Stalybridge cancelled every Sunday - Manchester Victoria & Wigan depots (Victoria having the larger share of the work on a Sunday).

Lancaster-Morecambe - Wigan & Barrow depot work.

But, yes it’s Liverpool that’s the problem, I’m not singling out a single depot by the way, but the idea it’s one depot causing all the problems is laughable.

ComUtoR · 20 Jan 2020

Robertj21a said:
No doubt I'll be told that the Unions would never allow it......

It isn't so much that they wouldn't allow it. Pay and conditions are negotiated under 'Collective bargaining' and that all Drivers are on the same terms and rates of pay. This is one of the reasons why the railway is such a successful employer and a good place to work. With everyone on the same terms it keeps everything fair. There is no wage gap between male/female as you are all considered 'Driver'

When you get employees on uneven terms you get more problems in the workplace and often creates division. It's also difficult for the employer because they need to keep a check on each employees terms to see if they can be rostered or given a specific task etc.

That said, ASLEF have agreed that some conditions can be different for new entrants.

Llama · 20 Jan 2020

Robertj21a said:
It's always a mystery to me why a TOC doesn't use updated Terms & Conditions (including Sundays, or whatever, as necessary) for all new recruits. At least that would, eventually, ease the situation for all concerned.
No doubt I'll be told that the Unions would never allow it......

This comes up regularly. It would never work - all you would have then is the onus on the new recruits to work Sundays, so the only way that would guarantee cover is if they were rostered to all Sundays.

Considering at my depot it takes 3-5 years to get a single new recruit fully productive on all routes and traction, and the recruitment of trainee drivers is only 5-10% per year it would be aeons before such a proposal would be effective. And this is irrespective of the fact that those recruits would by definition be working to different terms and conditions that the rest of the depot - they would be working a five day week vs the four day week, so what are you going to pay them? How are you going to roster them?

dk1 · 20 Jan 2020

Robertj21a said:
It's always a mystery to me why a TOC doesn't use updated Terms & Conditions (including Sundays, or whatever, as necessary) for all new recruits. At least that would, eventually, ease the situation for all concerned.
No doubt I'll be told that the Unions would never allow it......

We have been here so many times before. It would not be tolerated by the unions at most depots as would violate train crew agreements at each TOC.

Robertj21a · 20 Jan 2020

Llama said:
This comes up regularly. It would never work - all you would have then is the onus on the new recruits to work Sundays, so the only way that would guarantee cover is if they were rostered to all Sundays.

Considering at my depot it takes 3-5 years to get a single new recruit fully productive on all routes and traction, and the recruitment of trainee drivers is only 5-10% per year it would be aeons before such a proposal would be effective. And this is irrespective of the fact that those recruits would by definition be working to different terms and conditions that the rest of the depot - they would be working a five day week vs the four day week, so what are you going to pay them? How are you going to roster them?

I'm a firm believer in finding a solution, however challenging, it just takes the desire and enthisiasm to achieve it.

I see no reason why the new recruits would have to work excessive Sundays (say, 1 in 3 ?) - just allow overtime to continue to be available, as at present, for those on the older contracts.
I also see no reason to assume they would be on 5 day weeks, why couldn't they be on 4 day weeks ?

Gems · 20 Jan 2020

Panic move by the west side boys. The deal they turned down was actually better.

Llama · 20 Jan 2020

Gems said:
Panic move by the west side boys. The deal they turned down was actually better.

Absolutely not, on both counts.

ComUtoR · 20 Jan 2020

Robertj21a said:
I also see no reason to assume they would be on 5 day weeks, why couldn't they be on 4 day weeks ?

Due to 'link working' you would need to move everyone with sundays as part of their contract to their own link. So yes its possible, but adds another layer of complication.

jon0844 · 20 Jan 2020

WatcherZero said:
Sadly come too late for Arriva.

But perfect for Grant Shapps and the DfT taking control, then magically fixing everything....

Northern agrees deal with Aslef to ease weekend train cancellations

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