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TfGM ENCTS pass £10 train and tram surcharge.

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Welshman

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I am also the holder of such a pass, and I absolutely agree 100% with the above sentiment.

Where bus services are infrequent, particularly in rural areas, the local authority has the power to designate a particular bus journey as off peak even if it is before 09:30, to avoid an unduly long wait. (eg I had a relative who used to live in Poole, Dorset, and the bus was once per hour at 24 minutes past the hour. There was a consistent problem with "twirlies" trying to get on the 09:24 bus (especially when it ran late and arrived after 09:30), and it let to some friction between them and the bus drivers. The matter was resolved by designating this journey as off peak, which enabled ENCTS pass holders to use it without paying)

That was the case when I lived and worked in deeply rural Lincolnshire a few years ago.
The County Council removed the 0930 restriction altogether - had it still applied, 50% of the day's buses would have been unavailable to some folks!
 
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billh

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Now that is something to consider. If a bus arrives at a stop after 0930 on Monday to Friday, when the pass falls into the correct time usage period as such, despite any timetabled information, I ask if those card holders entitled to board as they are not doing so prior to the 0930 embargo time.

Can anyone with knowledge of card restriction use with knowledge of how the law would view such a matter, please feel they can make comment on that point.
That's my question also,as applies to trains: the service into Manchester according to the timetable is supposed to depart local station at 09:29. on every occasion I have travelled,it's been late by 2 or more minutes. So are we boarding that train on the right side of the rules or not? Not complaining about anything here, the Concessionary card is brilliant!
 

TheSel

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That's my question also,as applies to trains: the service into Manchester according to the timetable is supposed to depart local station at 09:29. on every occasion I have travelled,it's been late by 2 or more minutes. So are we boarding that train on the right side of the rules or not? Not complaining about anything here, the Concessionary card is brilliant!

From the TfGM website: https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/passes-for-older-people
  • Travel for free on all buses within Greater Manchester between 9.30am and midnight, Monday to Friday, and all day at weekends and on public holidays.
  • Until 31 January 2020, travel for free on Metrolink trams after 9.30am on Monday to Friday, and all day at weekends and on public holidays.
  • Until 31 January 2020, travel for free on trains within Greater Manchester on journeys scheduled to run at or after 9.30am, Monday to Friday, and all day at weekends and on public holidays.
[my emboldening, for clarity - and note this is the present rule, i.e. before the £10 'Tram and Bus add-on' comes into effect]

So it's the SCHEDULED departure time that applies.

There is a similar issue in Merseyside, where the concessionary pass is valid [direct quote]
  • All day on Saturdays, Sundays and bank holidays. Any time Monday to Friday, except for journeys which start between 6.31am and 9.29am. [again, my emboldening]
So, as an example, pass holders cannot legitimately board the 0928 Southport - Liverpool train at Southport, but CAN (and do!) board this service at Birkdale, where it is scheduled at 0932.
 

73001

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From the TfGM website: https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/passes-for-older-people
  • Travel for free on all buses within Greater Manchester between 9.30am and midnight, Monday to Friday, and all day at weekends and on public holidays.
  • Until 31 January 2020, travel for free on Metrolink trams after 9.30am on Monday to Friday, and all day at weekends and on public holidays.
  • Until 31 January 2020, travel for free on trains within Greater Manchester on journeys scheduled to run at or after 9.30am, Monday to Friday, and all day at weekends and on public holidays.
[my emboldening, for clarity - and note this is the present rule, i.e. before the £10 'Tram and Bus add-on' comes into effect]

So it's the SCHEDULED departure time that applies.

There is a similar issue in Merseyside, where the concessionary pass is valid [direct quote]
  • All day on Saturdays, Sundays and bank holidays. Any time Monday to Friday, except for journeys which start between 6.31am and 9.29am. [again, my emboldening]
So, as an example, pass holders cannot legitimately board the 0928 Southport - Liverpool train at Southport, but CAN (and do!) board this service at Birkdale, where it is scheduled at 0932.
An interesting difference being the "up to midnight" in Manchester and the fixed morning peak in Merseyside. When I was a revenue inspector we would fairly frequently see "twirlies" on buses before half 6 in the morning.
 

billh

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So it's the SCHEDULED departure time that applies.


Thanks for that, clarified a valid point.
it looks a bit harsh if the train is ,for example, half an hour late though.
 

TheSel

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So it's the SCHEDULED departure time that applies.


Thanks for that, clarified a valid point.
it looks a bit harsh if the train is ,for example, half an hour late though.

I take your point, but I guess it rather depends on the frequency of your services. If you've got a service that's running every 10 / 15 / 20 minutes or so, then why would you go for the 0929 in the first place, when you know that your ticket is valid on an alternative service shortly after?

On the other hand, if your service only runs every two or three hours, then maybe a 'relaxation' of the rules for that particular service is in order, as suggested above for various rural bus services.
 

Deerfold

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I take your point, but I guess it rather depends on the frequency of your services. If you've got a service that's running every 10 / 15 / 20 minutes or so, then why would you go for the 0929 in the first place, when you know that your ticket is valid on an alternative service shortly after?

You wouldn't. But if your service is every 10 minutes you might go for 0935 and find the 0855 turns up - if every train was 40 minutes late due to an earlier problem it seems a little unfair that you have to let perhaps 4 trains pass and be 40 minutes late when you've turned up on time and trains are running.
 

billh

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I take your point, but I guess it rather depends on the frequency of your services. If you've got a service that's running every 10 / 15 / 20 minutes or so, then why would you go for the 0929 in the first place, when you know that your ticket is valid on an alternative service shortly after?

On the other hand, if your service only runs every two or three hours, then maybe a 'relaxation' of the rules for that particular service is in order, as suggested above for various rural bus services.
There is a service at (I think) 09:48, which is the one I aim to get though I arrive early at the station , not with a view to catching a delayed 09:29, but I like being there , for nostalgic reasons. Seems a bit of a waste to not board a late running and less than half full 09:29. (still not complaining!)
eta: If the 09:29 was on time and I was there, I would not board that train.
eta2:it's a few weeks since I travelled, I see the timetable has changed, the train is scheduled to depart at 09:31,so that's alright then. Much ado about nothing. Thank you.
 
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TheSel

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You wouldn't. But if your service is every 10 minutes you might go for 0935 and find the 0855 turns up - if every train was 40 minutes late due to an earlier problem it seems a little unfair that you have to let perhaps 4 trains pass and be 40 minutes late when you've turned up on time and trains are running.

Fair point. Whether the average passenger would know (or care!) that every train was equally late in such a scenario is another matter, unless perhaps:

1) they had a reservation on a specific service, or
2) this hypothetical service runs to different terminal destinations.

Probably a case where that very rare commodity - common-sense - should apply!
 

Mcr Warrior

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This is essentially a variation of the same argument as to whether an Off Peak ticket can be used on a delayed service (on which it wouldn't have been valid had it be running on time).
 

TheSel

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Indeed.

Perhaps we should go the whole hog - make all rail travel free to all comers at all times. There you go - fares evasion eliminated in one fell swoop. Would feel a bit sorry for the Revenue Protection teams, though!

(Perhaps we're now going somewhat off-topic?)
 

Mathew S

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You wouldn't. But if your service is every 10 minutes you might go for 0935 and find the 0855 turns up - if every train was 40 minutes late due to an earlier problem it seems a little unfair that you have to let perhaps 4 trains pass and be 40 minutes late when you've turned up on time and trains are running.
In my experience, travelling occasionally with my father who has a TfGM ENCTS pass, common sense has always been applied in cases where delays are significant, and passengers allowed to travel. The example that springs to mind was OHLE down at Preston - I forget which exact time - causing delays to airport services. He was allowed on the first service which turned up after 0930, with the permission of station staff and no qiestions whatsoever raised by the guard/conductor.
 

S&CLER

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An interesting difference being the "up to midnight" in Manchester and the fixed morning peak in Merseyside. When I was a revenue inspector we would fairly frequently see "twirlies" on buses before half 6 in the morning.

This thread makes me appreciate all the more my Merseytravel pass, which is valid on trains to Ormskirk and Chester, both outside the one-time Merseyside Metropolitan CC area. I value my pass, get at least £11 a week in regular journeys and often more out of it, and would be prepared to pay £50 a year for it if there was a guarantee that the money would go back into public transport. Incidentally, and a bit off-topic (sorry), I was told by a friend that his mother in Tarvin near Chester and others in certain CH postcodes got a pass which is valid in both England and Wales, because they are near the border.
 

Greybeard33

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So it's the SCHEDULED departure time that applies.
Interesting that the scheduled departure time only seems to apply for trains. For buses and Metrolink you have to touch in with the card on the card reader, which accepts it as soon as the actual time is 09:30.
 

Deerfold

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Indeed.

Perhaps we should go the whole hog - make all rail travel free to all comers at all times. There you go - fares evasion eliminated in one fell swoop. Would feel a bit sorry for the Revenue Protection teams, though!

(Perhaps we're now going somewhat off-topic?)

Or we could make the rule arrival time instead of scheduled time, in common with many ticket restrictions.

The WY Day Saver I use which is valid after 0930 goes on actual time, not scheduled time.
 

CHAPS2034

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Just heard from someone that their pass which had been validated for the £10 charge didn't work the barriers at Picc this morning.

Only got through when he showed his receipt.

You have been warned!
 

Mathew S

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Just heard from someone that their pass which had been validated for the £10 charge didn't work the barriers at Picc this morning.

Only got through when he showed his receipt.

You have been warned!
This isn't unusual. The/Some concessionary passes have never worked in the majority of barriers, including at Wigan, Bolton, and Man Vic for starters. Either that or my father's a plonker, I wouldn't like to say which tbh :lol:
 

richw

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Everyone that I know with an ENCTS entitlement are well aware of the after-0930 starting time on Monday to Friday that applies to ENCTS card use. I think that we see an urban myth rearing its ugly head.

if they don’t like the 0930 time restriction where they are, they can come to Cornwall and use it 24/7
 

WatcherZero

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Mate bought a Northern season ticket last week online but it wouldn't load on the card properly failing to operate the gates, he was told that it would appear later.
So of course knowing luck he was then stopped at the end of his journey by a revenue protection operation at a station which has never had one in two years of us using it every single day for work.
He had the receipt but the card wouldn't scan as an active ticket, they wouldn't accept his receipt and marched him to the ticket office to buy a ticket, the lady at the counter scanned the card and again said there was no fresh ticket on it, the previous one had expired and he had to buy another. He then went over to the ticket machine where you can see the transaction history on the card and his new ticket was indeed there but for some reason it had been put on as the oldest rather than the most recent ticket. Whole thing took 15 minutes of him arguing with staff and threats of fines and demands to purchase a replacement ticket to solve. On our return journey the card worked fine in the gates.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I saw a misunderstanding at Wythenshawe Town Centre today as someone who had their card updated a week ago at the Stockport Travelshop had travelled to the nearest Metrolink card reader on the platform in order to validate their card, only to be told by a Metrolink person on the platform that type of validation was only needed if the transaction had been done online. They had travelled from Cheadle Hulme on the 368 bus in order to perform the said task.
 

CHAPS2034

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Further update

My friend who had the issue at Piccadilly had time to go to the Travel Shop in Piccadilly Gardens; they scanned his pass and confirmed it was set up for tram and train, so the barriers at Piccadilly had not been correctly set up.

Later on I went by train to Wigan Wallgate. There my pass didn't work as usual. However the chap on the gate-line scanned my pass on some sort of hand held machine which, when the valves had warmed up, eventually showed my pass had been validated for tram and train. He said they had been asked to do this but it was taking a long time and something needed to be changed. I did have my receipt if required

Several hours later I pitched up at Wallgate again and went to use the same gate (the wide one) in the opposite direction. And lo and behold the pass worked! What didn't was my train, cancelled on arrival from Southport "due to a problem with the train crew"...as were the next two to Manchester. Luckily I only had to wait 17 minutes as there are 5 departures in 30 minutes then none for the next half hour although I ended up at Victoria instead of Piccadilly.

When I arrived at Victoria, my pass failed to work but I was waved through, probably as it was very busy. I caught a tram towards Piccadilly; it worked fine tapping in and out. By this time the Picc gates were open, so I had no chance to find out what would happen there. No check on the local train home.
 
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