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Northern agrees deal with Aslef to ease weekend train cancellations

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156420

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If an agreement with a TOC is reached, voted on by the union membership and then approved by a majority of union members, noting the oft-cited word "solidarity", can then one particular train depot choose not to adhere to such an agreement?

No.

There’s no problem with any particular depot.

Again, don’t be blinded by stereotypes.
 
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scrapy

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If an agreement with a TOC is reached, voted on by the union membership and then approved by a majority of union members, noting the oft-cited word "solidarity", can then one particular train depot choose not to adhere to such an agreement?
No they have to go with it
 

scrapy

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Can you be forced onto a new contract (not sure...)?
Could always ask for a guarantee that that won’t happen, like the RMT want no DOO guarantees.
Yes you can be forced onto a new contract (Google ASDA new contracts for a recent case). A TOC can also only guarantee what may happen in the duration of their franchise.
 

Meerkat

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Yes you can be forced onto a new contract (Google ASDA new contracts for a recent case). A TOC can also only guarantee what may happen in the duration of their franchise.
On what grounds would they sack the Asda staff?
 

Economist

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The ASDA staff would have left the company if they didn't sign a new contract. Easier to do in retail because it doesn't take a long time to train a supermarket worker, the staff who carry out the training wouldn't be interested in industrial action and the existing workers probably wouldn't have a particularly strong financial situation. Lastly, a supermarket isn't going to be front-page news if the shelves are a bit bare for a few weeks.

It takes 12-18 months to train a train driver from scratch and the drivers need to spend a lot of that time one to one with a driver instructor (DI). The drivers (well, sensible ones anyway) will have a large enough savings pot to weather a few months with no income. If, say, half the drivers refused a new contract, the remaining DIs handed back their DI tickets to become ordinary drivers again (or simply refused to allow trainees to drive) and the remaining drivers staged a rest-day ban, the TOC concerned would be totally stuffed. TOC management know this.
 

Meerkat

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It’s off topic but possibly relevant to TOC options I guess.
I thought you had to have grounds to sack someone? I assume there must be a clause that you can change people’s contracts within reasonable limits and for good business reasons, both of which could only really be tested in court?
 

scrapy

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The ASDA staff would have left the company if they didn't sign a new contract. Easier to do in retail because it doesn't take a long time to train a supermarket worker, the staff who carry out the training wouldn't be interested in industrial action and the existing workers probably wouldn't have a particularly strong financial situation. Lastly, a supermarket isn't going to be front-page news if the shelves are a bit bare for a few weeks.

It takes 12-18 months to train a train driver from scratch and the drivers need to spend a lot of that time one to one with a driver instructor (DI). The drivers (well, sensible ones anyway) will have a large enough savings pot to weather a few months with no income. If, say, half the drivers refused a new contract, the remaining DIs handed back their DI tickets to become ordinary drivers again (or simply refused to allow trainees to drive) and the remaining drivers staged a rest-day ban, the TOC concerned would be totally stuffed. TOC management know this.
Once those on old contracts are in a minority a rest day ban on a properly staffed TOC by a minority of staff wouldn't make a difference. There was a rest day ban for many years under Serco Abellio.

Where would those drivers who didn't sign new contracts go? Granted some might be able to retire but the majority wouldn't.
 

ComUtoR

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I assume there must be a clause that you can change people’s contracts within reasonable limits and for good business reasons

When I was a Manager, I was responsible for a dramatic contract change. This was to remove any additional payments for weekends/Sundays and to have Sundays as a 'normal' working day. There was a few other conditions to be added (flexible time working etc) but it was to be rolled out to all employees.

There was a clause in their contracts that stated "Your contract can be changed at any time; subject to 13 weeks notice"

Even though there was consultation and both group and individual meetings. The contract change was absolute. It was a case of accept and we will give you compensation or don't accept and we will change it anyway.

Retail is a little cutthroat tbh
 

Llama

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Consultation is generally a worthless phrase though in industrial relations, for example "we're doing xyz whether you like it or not" could be considered consultation. These are strange times on the railway though, and it would be a fool to think that such cutthroat tactics are the reserve of only relatively fickle industries.
 

Bantamzen

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Consultation is generally a worthless phrase though in industrial relations, for example "we're doing xyz whether you like it or not" could be considered consultation. These are strange times on the railway though, and it would be a fool to think that such cutthroat tactics are the reserve of only relatively fickle industries.

A few years ago my department introduced new contracts that they wanted to roll out, which would increase the standard office hours & get commitments for staff to rota cover for the new hours. Technically they couldn't force these new ones onto us, but the basic premise was "We'll give those that sign the new contracts slightly higher annual rises for x years, although the overall budget for rises will remain the same".

Or in other words, if you want a few more scraps, sign on the bottom line. Despite a huge amount of cynicism about it, the vast majority in the end signed the new contracts. Its amazing how the bottom line can be used quite so cynically, but it does happen.
 

Gems

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Sorry, I can't allow this to go unchallenged.
From my experience, and taking recent disputes into consideration, ASLEF is by far the more moderate of the two main rail unions and far less prone to taking strike action.
ASLEF also recommended acceptance of the original New Deal for Drivers proposal, so can't be blamed for the collapse of that either.
The three sets of T & C's within Northern, (don't forget the ex - TPE link at Barrow and Blackpool), was always going to be a major stumbling block.
You can't blame people for fighting their own corner. That's life.
This is nonsense. You are mistaking moderation with the unrivaled ability to blackmail. Why would a union need to go on strike when the TOC's are so afraid of a strike they'll bend over backwards anyway.
ASLEF is a abomination of a union. Greedy, selfish, and happy to stick one over on other workers just to get what they think they are entitled to. I'll say it again, I want to see ASLEF challenged on every front, and if it is one thing I hope Johnson does in the next five years, it's to do just that for the good of us all.
 

Economist

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Once those on old contracts are in a minority a rest day ban on a properly staffed TOC by a minority of staff wouldn't make a difference. There was a rest day ban for many years under Serco Abellio.

Where would those drivers who didn't sign new contracts go? Granted some might be able to retire but the majority wouldn't.

The TOC wouldn't be properly staffed as soon as the drivers who didn't sign left, it would take the TOC an age to get new drivers in the door to replace them. If the existing drivers who signed the new contract agreed to a rest-day and DI ban, I think the many of the non-signing drivers would end up back at the TOC they left because the company would capitulate. The whole scenario would rely on circa. half of the drivers refusing to sign, whether that would happen, I don't know.
 

43066

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ASLEF is a abomination of a union. Greedy, selfish, and happy to stick one over on other workers just to get what they think they are entitled to.

I take it you’re a former guard in the GTR area? ;)
 

Meerkat

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How is splitting Northern going to help either staff or passengers? The last thing the latter want is more fragmentation.
How do you know? The North East passengers might want their own railway rather than one far more interested in Manchester and Leeds.
 

Gems

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Drivers going on strike??? Ha, don't make me laugh. Too many expensive houses and BMW's parked in station car parks for that to last more than a week. The more a person earns the greedier they get. Someone tell me where the average train driver with the skills they have will earn enough to make payments on their fancy cars.
 

O L Leigh

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Drivers going on strike??? Ha, don't make me laugh. Too many expensive houses and BMW's parked in station car parks for that to last more than a week. The more a person earns the greedier they get. Someone tell me where the average train driver with the skills they have will earn enough to make payments on their fancy cars.

Have you thought of switching to decaf...?

Frankly I’m disappointed that we can never have a proper conversation on industrial relations because it always degenerates into this sort of frothing extremism based on little more than the media’s partisan coverage. I’ve given up trying to educate people like you because you’re closed to seeing things any other way.

By the way, I’m very happy in my two-bed semi, and my 5 year old VW is bought and paid for. My financial responsibilities are covered.
 

Robertj21a

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Have you thought of switching to decaf...?

Frankly I’m disappointed that we can never have a proper conversation on industrial relations because it always degenerates into this sort of frothing extremism based on little more than the media’s partisan coverage. I’ve given up trying to educate people like you because you’re closed to seeing things any other way.

By the way, I’m very happy in my two-bed semi, and my 5 year old VW is bought and paid for. My financial responsibilities are covered.

We've never been able to have a sensible objective discussion on Management, DfT, ASLEF or RMT. It's never going to be possible when it's a Rail Forum, dominated by.....err.....Rail staff !!. In fairness, it also wouldn't be possible on a forum dominated largely by non-rail staff.
 

thedbdiboy

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Consultation is generally a worthless phrase though in industrial relations, for example "we're doing xyz whether you like it or not" could be considered consultation.
Even in BR days it was explained to me that Negotiation = management and staff side had to agree whereas Consultation = management discuss proposal with staff side and then do it anyway
 

Class83

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The TOC wouldn't be properly staffed as soon as the drivers who didn't sign left, it would take the TOC an age to get new drivers in the door to replace them. If the existing drivers who signed the new contract agreed to a rest-day and DI ban, I think the many of the non-signing drivers would end up back at the TOC they left because the company would capitulate. The whole scenario would rely on circa. half of the drivers refusing to sign, whether that would happen, I don't know.
If the Government insist all new franchises offer 7 day contracts the drivers are going to run out of places to drive trains 6 days a week fairly quickly. Outside of London they're unlikely to pick up equivalently paid (and pensioned) work either. It would be a mess for a bit, but the railway is a 7 day operation and contracts, with appropriate allowances to make up for the overtime rate currently paid on Sundays should reflect that, it has needed sorting for a long time.
 

dk1

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Drivers going on strike??? Ha, don't make me laugh. Too many expensive houses and BMW's parked in station car parks for that to last more than a week. The more a person earns the greedier they get. Someone tell me where the average train driver with the skills they have will earn enough to make payments on their fancy cars.
You sound like Wilkinson at the DfT. Don't you believe it. Everything paid for with me. I cut my garment according to my cloth ;)
 

O L Leigh

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If the Government insist all new franchises offer 7 day contracts the drivers are going to run out of places to drive trains 6 days a week fairly quickly. Outside of London they're unlikely to pick up equivalently paid (and pensioned) work either. It would be a mess for a bit, but the railway is a 7 day operation and contracts, with appropriate allowances to make up for the overtime rate currently paid on Sundays should reflect that, it has needed sorting for a long time.

That is all predicated on a very big “if”.

I’ve said for a long time that the best compromise is committed Sundays, where Sundays remain outside the working week and paid at whatever rate overtime is paid at (which may be flat rate depending on the TOC). It gives staff the flexibility to take the day off but the TOC the reassurance that the work gets covered. All this talk about replacing contracts of employment and DfT specifications is like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. If TOCs treated their staff with a bit more respect I’m sure there would be no troubles whatsoever with covering Sunday work no matter what terms are in effect.
 

dk1

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Posting history suggests a Northern guard, but one with a very large anti-driver chip on the shoulder. Must be a delight to work with.
Thanks. Doesn't take long to whittle these things down. No friendly Wetherspoon breakfasts for driver/guard that end by the sound of things :lol:
 

SlimJim1694

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That is all predicated on a very big “if”.

I’ve said for a long time that the best compromise is committed Sundays, where Sundays remain outside the working week and paid at whatever rate overtime is paid at (which may be flat rate depending on the TOC). It gives staff the flexibility to take the day off but the TOC the reassurance that the work gets covered. All this talk about replacing contracts of employment and DfT specifications is like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. If TOCs treated their staff with a bit more respect I’m sure there would be no troubles whatsoever with covering Sunday work no matter what terms are in effect.

Committed sundays is not a compromise. Its forcing people who normally work a 4 day week to work a 5 day week every few weeks and is a massive step backwards. We have sundays inside the week where I am and it's a flat 4 day week. If I want to work five days a week I'll volunteer for overtime when it suits me, i dont want to be forced to come in for overtime on a Sunday when I'm already booked to work my contractual 4 days that week. If my TOC turned round and said they were forcing me to come in and work a particular rest day every three weeks I'd be raging. I'll work rest days when I want and don't work them when I don't want. For anyone who is currently on a 4 day week, enforced OT is a massive step backwards. Committed sundays are quite frankly a scandal. Bring them in the week or leave them outside, dont start messing people about and forcing them to do extra days over and above what they do already.

I think east mids had the right idea giving existing people the choice and then putting all new starters on the sundays inside link. Everybody knows what page they are on then and nobody is forced to work extra days if they dont want to.
 
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