End of Routemaster multiple door operation

Busaholic · 17 Jan 2020

Mikey C said:
On a real Routemaster etc, if you fell while going down the stairs you could end up falling out of the bus completely...

Yes, that is true, and I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but an older person with frailties is unlikely to have the velocity to do all that. Broken bones, yes, but I still say a fall down straight stairs is more likely to lead to something far worse, possibly life terminating, but I'm not offering my body for experimentation on this thesis just yet :lol:

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3rd rail land · 19 Jan 2020

As people have mentioned there is plenty of fare evasion on the current Routemasters. I have seen people board numerous times via the middle or back door and head straight upstairs without any attempt to touch in whatsoever.

In fact one time the driver caught a guy who didn't touch in on a Routemaster and he refused to move the bus. In fact he got out of his cab and lectured the guy who was at the rear of the bus. The guy tried to pay on a card but it was rejected and he eventually got of the bus. Fair play to the driver for holding his ground on the matter but presumably it made him late and he would have to explain the delay to his route controller/superiors. I expect most drivers just don't want the hassle of confronting fare evaders.

L401CJF · 19 Jan 2020

3rd rail land said:
As people have mentioned there is plenty of fare evasion on the current Routemasters. I have seen people board numerous times via the middle or back door and head straight upstairs without any attempt to touch in whatsoever.

In fact one time the driver caught a guy who didn't touch in on a Routemaster and he refused to move the bus. In fact he got out of his cab and lectured the guy who was at the rear of the bus. The guy tried to pay on a card but it was rejected and he eventually got of the bus. Fair play to the driver for holding his ground on the matter but presumably it made him late and he would have to explain the delay to his route controller/superiors. I expect most drivers just don't want the hassle of confronting fare evaders.

Im not sure about london, but where I work we are encouraged not to tackle fare evasion but rather avoid all confrontation. Also told never to leave the cab.

Bletchleyite · 19 Jan 2020

3rd rail land said:
As people have mentioned there is plenty of fare evasion on the current Routemasters. I have seen people board numerous times via the middle or back door and head straight upstairs without any attempt to touch in whatsoever.

I've done that lots of times. Indeed, most of the time.

Before anyone gets their back up at me fare-dodging, I in fact was not - I was using a paper outboundary Travelcard. Others you saw may well have had one too.

3rd rail land · 19 Jan 2020

L401CJF said:
Im not sure about london, but where I work we are encouraged not to tackle fare evasion but rather avoid all confrontation. Also told never to leave the cab.

When they had the TV series a number of years ago about buses in London I am sure it was said drivers are advised not to leave the cab.

Bletchleyite said:
I've done that lots of times. Indeed, most of the time.

Before anyone gets their back up at me fare-dodging, I in fact was not - I was using a paper outboundary Travelcard. Others you saw may well have had one too.

In London when you have a paper ticket of any kind you are required to board by the front door and show the ticket to the driver. Middle or back door boarding requires you to touch in even if you have a season ticket/travelcard loaded on a card or have reached the daily/weekly cap.

The give away is the speed in which they dash upstairs as quickly as possible. Non fare evading passengers always walk at a normal pace, not really quickly giving away the fact they have something to hide. I even saw a guy board during a driver changeover and he waited until the card readers were out of use as the driver taking over had not yet logged into the bus. He knew the driver was too busy to reprimand him.

Fare evaders are so easy to notice it is unbelievable.

Bletchleyite · 19 Jan 2020

If that is the rule (and I thought it had changed) it is widely ignored and totally unenforced.

3rd rail land · 19 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
If that is the rule (and I thought it had changed) it is widely ignored and totally unenforced.

At lot of rules such as this are unenforced as you say. I find it rare for a driver to confront/challenge/say anything to a passenger even if they see them doing something they shouldn't. It just isn't worth the hassle especially if it causes late running or a complaint.

I can count on one hand the number of times a driver has challenged a passenger and I live in London and use buses frequently.

Bletchleyite · 19 Jan 2020

I think it's also a cultural thing. In London traditionally bus drivers drove and didn't deal with passengers, and this seems to still be the culture. Outside London the bus driver's bus is his (or her) castle and revenue is done almost obsessively even if it puts the driver at risk of assault.

FOH · 20 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
If that is the rule (and I thought it had changed) it is widely ignored and totally unenforced.

I've got an Oyster season travel card and didn't realise it was mandatory for me to touch in either at middle and rear doors

AlbertBeale · 21 Jan 2020

FOH said:
I've got an Oyster season travel card and didn't realise it was mandatory for me to touch in either at middle and rear doors

It isn't. You must be in possession of a valid ticket/pass/whatever; some are charged per journey and need validating - others (such as a season ticket) are surely valid come what may, and any ticket inspector would presumably be content once they saw your ticket and it wouldn't be relevant whether you had beeped it or not. I can't see what rule is being broken.

The strange thing about this fuss in London is that in many cities abroad, with comparable systems, any requirement for people to validate tickets (or even simply to be in possession of one) is enforced perfectly well by a combination of reasonably frequent ticket inspections and a very hefty on-the-spot charge if you're trying to dodge the fare. This includes metro systems with open "gates" in some cities, relying on expensive (for non-payers) inspections.

Is it really the case that fare losses through evasion are much worse in other countries? I don't think so. I haven't seen a ticket inspector in action on any bus I've been on in London for (literally) years - that's the problem, not people getting on at whatever door they want to.

Geordie driver · 21 Jan 2020

I have,in the past,thrown people off a bus to refusing to pay, this was in the North East many moons ago. We had one driver on the last bus pick someone up by the feet and shake him until his money fell out.

No way I would do it now, you are a number to the company and if you end up unable to work because of an assault the only concern they will have is how they are going to cover your runs. Drivers are told not to get out of their cabs. But then still expected to combat fare evasion. Police won't help, inspectors are invisible when needed.

Companies want it both ways, every rule and regulation followed to the letter but with zero back up when things go wrong.

It just shows that the people making the decisions have no idea how the real world works, if people can get away with something, they will.

In any case, how can you know with a certainty that the person you are ejecting isn't vunerable ?

PeterC · 21 Jan 2020

Geordie driver said:
SNIP
In any case, how can you know with a certainty that the person you are ejecting isn't vunerable ?

I think that you can be sure that they will magically become "vulnerable" if a complaint is made.

Mag_seven · 21 Jan 2020

AlbertBeale said:
I haven't seen a ticket inspector in action on any bus I've been on in London for (literally) years

I have just recently.

Bletchleyite · 21 Jan 2020

Mag_seven said:
I have just recently.

I have precisely once and it was quite recent. Maybe they've been stepped up?

They also tried to PF me because I'd touched in before the driver had been bothered to correctly set up his ticket machine, too. It seems it had been left on the previous journey (so I did get a green light, and they confirmed this somehow in the end, possibly from talking to him, or possibly because everyone who had boarded at Euston had presented the same issue).

bakerstreet · 10 Feb 2020

3rd rail land said:
In London when you have a paper ticket of any kind you are required to board by the front door and show the ticket to the driver. Middle or back door boarding requires you to touch in even if you have a season ticket/travelcard loaded on a card or have reached the daily/weekly cap.

The give away is the speed in which they dash upstairs as quickly as possible. Non fare evading passengers always walk at a normal pace, not really quickly giving away the fact they have something to hide. I even saw a guy board during a driver changeover and he waited until the card readers were out of use as the driver taking over had not yet logged into the bus. He knew the driver was too busy to reprimand him.

Fare evaders are so easy to notice it is unbelievable.

There is a sign on the middle and rear doors of the new routemasters which haven’t yet been converted to front door boarding only. The sign talks about contactless and oyster and goes on to state that bus saver ticket holders must board at the front. It does not state paper tickets. It was confirmed to me by Tfl that I’m fine to board via middle or back doors with paper tickets.
I don’t think you can still purchase bus savers but perhaps existing ones are still valid or they haven’t ever updated the signs.
I was once approached by a driver who saw me board via the back without tapping in. He produced (I assumed) an unpaid fare book and proceeded to rebuke me for not boarding at the front. He asked if I’d read the signs on the back door. I said I had. And we went down to read them together. Although he didn’t apologise, he did simply walk back up to his drivers seat and we carried on our journey

EDIT - added link to picture of sign.
https://www.google.com/search?q=new...YI_enGB770GB770&hl=en-GB#imgrc=VsCmm28U65h11M

Wolfie · 10 Feb 2020

bakerstreet said:
There is a sign on the middle and rear doors of the new routemasters which haven’t yet been converted to front door boarding only. The sign talks about contactless and oyster and goes in to state that bus saver ticket holders must board at the front. It does not state paper tickets. It was confirmed to me by Tfl that I’m fine to board via middle or back doors with paper tickets.
I don’t think you can still purchase bus savers but perhaps existing ones are still valid or they haven’t ever updated them.
I was once approached by a driver who saw me board via the back without tapping in. He produced (I assumed) an unpaid fare book and proceeded to rebuke me for not boarding at the front. He asked if I’d read the signs on the back door. I said I had. And we went down to read them together. Although he didn’t apologise, he did simply walk back up to his drivers seat and we carried on our journey.

You are correct about both bus savers and the signs on Boris buses (as l consider them dire he shouldn't escape the blame for them!)

Bletchleyite · 10 Feb 2020

Yes, TfL must regret issuing the Saver tickets without an expiry date (even a long one e.g. 5 years) - as a result they are valid in perpetuity.

It was the case that all paper ticket holders had to board at the front but it was changed some time ago.

Aldgate 42 · 30 Mar 2020

Am I missing something here? If rear two doors are used for 'alighting only' what's to stop a fare evader from boarding there?

Mikey C · 31 Mar 2020

Aldgate 42 said:
Am I missing something here? If rear two doors are used for 'alighting only' what's to stop a fare evader from boarding there?

The same as on a conventional 2 door bus, if the driver spots you going on the middle bus he'll ask you to get off and refuse to drive on until you do.

If the bus is packed, it's probably more difficult to monitor the back door of a NRM, so I assume the odd person may get away with getting on that way

Hophead · 31 Mar 2020

One of the modifications is to enable the driver to operate the doors independently, so the exit doors can be closed once alighting is complete.

End of Routemaster multiple door operation

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