O L Leigh
Established Member
In what way? Because you see it doing a good job for your colleagues up in the crumple zone?
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Northern agrees deal with Aslef to ease weekend train cancellations
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In what way? Because you see it doing a good job for your colleagues up in the crumple zone?
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RailUK Forums
hang on! We have been repeatedly told that the unions wouldn’t accept this and it would never work operationally!
O L Leigh
Established Member
Well that’s the alternative view. On the downside, you would need to use an A/L day if you want to take a Sunday off which limits the number you can take. All I’d need to do is find one of my colleagues who likes extras to cover my turn and I’m guaranteed the day off. It also artificially inflates depot establishments which is often the reason that TOCs don’t want to do it.
O L Leigh
Established Member
That’s not a contractual point but rather a linking issue within the company’s depots. Most TOCs will have starter links that are different in some way. If EMR have agreed to permit “Sundays inside” links that all starters go into then it’s a different matter.
SlimJim1694
Member
Wasnt there a case of a virgin driver taking them to court over committed sundays? I seem to remember hearing something about that a while ago.
Robertj21a
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Surely, it would help the passengers in the eastern part given that they travel with the usually more co-operative and pragmatic side of the RMT in the north ?
What’s the difference? If they are on Sundays inside then surely that’s what their contract says?
I'll tell what it is shall I.
I think a good many of us who religiously turn up for our booked Sunday turns are getting mighty sick now of this continuous disruption. Believe it or not, it is the public who pay drivers wages as well as every other railway employee. This is a throwback to the 70's where the 'Red Robo's' of British Leyland purposely caused disruption because they could. They were offered a great deal at the expense of everyone else, yet felt it wasn't enough silver crossing their palms.
There is a very hard shifting mood among'st many of us now on the East side to see these people faced down. That facing down is coming, and they'll be no sympathy from the travelling public, and neither should there be.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Nope. The contracts are generally quite vague. Things like this are controlled more by local and collective agreements.
Generally speaking, a TOC will allow any link arrangements provided that it works and that there are enough people to commit to it.
Generally speaking, a TOC will allow any link arrangements provided that it works and that there are enough people to commit to it.
So why is this not possible elsewhere? New starters have Sundays inside, old timers offered it, and it gradually filters through.
dk1
Veteran Member
Because it all comes down to local agreements.
AFAIK they’re paid a higher basic for the Sundays inside link. Existing drivers were given the choice to opt into the Sundays inside link or keep Sundays outside.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Because clearly there is no need for it. Most companies don’t have an issue with Sundays, so why go around changing things.
But linking commitments don’t necessarily stay with an individual driver. The link is just the link and where there is more than one in a depot there will be transfer arrangements between them. I would imagine that EMR’s linking arrangements do not preclude existing drivers transferring into the “Sundays inside” link or newer drivers transferring out of it subject to the company’s link progression arrangements.
But linking commitments don’t necessarily stay with an individual driver. The link is just the link and where there is more than one in a depot there will be transfer arrangements between them. I would imagine that EMR’s linking arrangements do not preclude existing drivers transferring into the “Sundays inside” link or newer drivers transferring out of it subject to the company’s link progression arrangements.
dk1
Veteran Member
I don't think impossible. Depends on which TOC. Take GA then agreements are totally different whether you join at an ex-West Anglia, Anglia Railways or Great Eastern depots. There is no choice at which one as you go onto the same conditions as the others at that location. I expect EMR drivers are very different if they are ex-Central or ex-MML.
Robertj21a
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Perhaps we should have a UK-wide referendum on the subject........
I think that, on balance, I'd vote for a national wage for any position on the railways (regardless of TOC), with a requirement for Sundays/Bank Holidays etc to be included as part of any *new* contract.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Forgive me, but it sounds as though the root of your issue is that you feel that your colleague's aspirations are unrealistic. If that was your criticism alone that would be fine, but that isn't enough to try to undermine the position of the union. ASLEF, the same as RMT and all the others, are there to represent the interests of their members and if there's something about this offer that was disliked (and that may not be down to money) then it is right and proper that it gets rejected. There's a lot going on in the North at the moment and I don't pretend to be up on any of the specifics, but negotiations on pay rarely exclude conditions.
What alarms me a little about your hard-line stance is that you miss a salient feature. Restrictive legislation extends to all unions, not just ASLEF. I shall presume (perhaps incorrectly) that you are yourself a member of RMT. If that is that case you shall find the actions of your own representatives similarly choked.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Why? Would you support it for other industries also, such as healthcare?
The issue often isn’t bringing Sundays inside (or introducing “committed” Sundays) in and of itself, it’s TOCs trying to sneak other changes to Ts and Cs through as part of the same deal.
Robertj21a
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O L Leigh
Established Member
Sadly it would be a pointless and unnecessary gesture. The vast majority of rail staff happily work 363 days of the year without the need to be compelled. Your proposal would merely be interventionist for the sake of it and would be a restrictive burden on a privatised industry. As I suggested above, better industrial relations would result in greater goodwill on the part of the workforce.
dk1
Veteran Member
Darn it', there was me thinking this was going to be an endless evening of entertainment on this thread & it's all fizzled out 
Oh well, next time maybe 
Oh well, next time maybe Robertj21a
On Moderation
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So, why are there regular arguments over Sunday working ?
O L Leigh
Established Member
Darn it', there was me thinking this was going to be an endless evening of entertainment on this thread & it's all fizzled out
Don't panic!! We're off again.
Most of these arguments are limited solely to the pages of this forum. Lots of people here (yourself included) would like to see the situation changed by imposition of new conditions on a system that is not yet broken rather than a fostering of better industrial relations. I have repeatedly, and for many years, held out the example of committed Sundays as a workable compromise that largely meets the aspirations of both the staff and the TOCs. Where this operates the question of Sunday working is limited to the occasional grumblings of the depot extremist who complains that he's being compelled to work overtime where such working should be voluntary.
Where it appears that there are issues with Sundays it is because certain grades (and not always drivers) who cannot be compelled to work Sundays due to their T&Cs withdraw their goodwill due to some other industrial relations issue. However, if there has been any actions taken specifically over Sunday working I would imagine that this is due to the TOC wishing to impose new working practices onto their staff.
Given that Northern is a franchised operation, receiving millions of pounds in public money, why has the agreement with the unions not been published? At the very least the public have a right to see what has been agreed so they can check whether it is being delivered.
Exiled Lanc
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A response every bit as as pathetic and predictable as I had expected. I'm not mistaking anything. I'm basing my opinion on facts, rather than political beliefs. I'm certainly not mistaking that you are clearly someone with a huge chip on your shoulder.
Because it's not just the union that's involved so is comercially sensitive I assume?
Re the comments about Aslef / drivers and Sundays. It's worth pointing out that even if every driver turns up for a Sunday from now on there will still be train cancellations because the west guards have Sundays out, have no such agreement as that recently voted in by drivers and also, potentially more importantly, west guards are not committed to come in for any Sunday. If they sign the day off they get the day off. Up til now that fact has been masked recently by the fact that there have been so many driver shortages.
Re the comments about Aslef / drivers and Sundays. It's worth pointing out that even if every driver turns up for a Sunday from now on there will still be train cancellations because the west guards have Sundays out, have no such agreement as that recently voted in by drivers and also, potentially more importantly, west guards are not committed to come in for any Sunday. If they sign the day off they get the day off. Up til now that fact has been masked recently by the fact that there have been so many driver shortages.
Yes please. There are numerous other industries where intractable issues have been fixed in the longer term by imposing new conditions. Rail is well overdue for the same.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Selective quoting means missing out on the rest of the message. Sunday working is not an intractable issue, as I have already outlined.
I cannot see anything in what you have said above that suggests it is solvable. If it was it presumably would have been done a ling time ago. Time for rail to move into the 21st century. Sundays are no different for many other industries. No reason for rail to be any different.
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