Parliamentary debate on rolling stock on HS1

HouseOfCommons · 21 Jan 2020

Just for anyone interested, there was a debate in Parliament this morning on rolling stock on HS1, led by Damian Green - MP for Ashford.

He spoke of some of the issues with extending rolling stock on this line:

"Hitachi made the interesting point that the trains on the HS1 line are specifically designed for it and for the Southeastern conventional network. The trains use two different power sources and have three different signalling systems on board, so standard UK network trains cannot be used. How to extend or replace the rolling stock on this particular line is a special issue. Hitachi itself advises planning for a lead time in the order of four years before new train sets could come into service on the line—consider the design time, procurement, testing and approvals for a specialist product. For that timescale to be achieved, clarity on the future of the franchise at the earliest opportunity is vital."

Several other MPs with constituencies on the line made contributions to the debate. Transport Minister Chris Heaton-Harris responded, setting out the Government's position.

You can read the full transcript of the debate on Hansard.

You can watch it on parliamentlive.tv.

You can read a recent House of Commons Library Insight: On the right track? the future of rail services

RailUK Forums

Meerkat · 21 Jan 2020

Specialist product?
How different is an 800 from an HS1 unit?

59CosG95 · 21 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
Specialist product?
How different is an 800 from an HS1 unit?

Power sources (25kV AC & 750V DC on a 395 vs. 25kV/diesel for an 800);
Number of vehicles per unit;
Signalling systems (395s have to be equipped with TVM as well as AWS/TPWS)

for starters.
Granted, the 800s were derived from the 395s.

Meerkat · 21 Jan 2020

I guess my question is what is different about an all electric AT300 that means you can’t just bolt all the extras needed into the same places as on a 395 (to simplify somewhat!)?
Is HS1 planned to go to ECTS any time soon?

59CosG95 · 21 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
I guess my question is what is different about an all electric AT300 that means you can’t just bolt all the extras needed into the same places as on a 395 (to simplify somewhat!)?
Is HS1 planned to go to ECTS any time soon?

Yes, and by "any time soon" on a project of this scale, read "2032". https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2018/09/10/upgrading-the-continental-connection/

Meerkat · 21 Jan 2020

59CosG95 said:
Yes, and by "any time soon" on a project of this scale, read "2032". https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2018/09/10/upgrading-the-continental-connection/

Ah, bit long to wait for that before building extra trains then!

brad465 · 21 Jan 2020

New rolling stock, as necessary as it is for HS1 and connecting lines, will most likely need a new franchise award (or whatever the Williams' review decides), to be produced and deployed, so sorting out the SE debacle as well will be needed, but that's another story.

Meerkat · 21 Jan 2020

brad465 said:
New rolling stock, as necessary as it is for HS1 and connecting lines, will most likely need a new franchise award (or whatever the Williams' review decides), to be produced and deployed, so sorting out the SE debacle as well will be needed, but that's another story.

I don’t see why. You just add procurement to the Direct Award conditions.
Or the DfT do it themselves (that always goes well.....) and hope there will be a franchise competition in time to do the introduction.

Bigger question.....where would you keep them, isn’t there a shortage of depot space?

brad465 · 21 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
I don’t see why. You just add procurement to the Direct Award conditions.
Or the DfT do it themselves (that always goes well.....) and hope there will be a franchise competition in time to do the introduction.

Bigger question.....where would you keep them, isn’t there a shortage of depot space?

There is, which hasn't been acted on in part due to the franchise situation, other than NR trying to get Chart Leacon partly reopened, but that's rather up in the air as well.

D365 · 21 Jan 2020

Would I be right to imagine that a 6x20m bi-mode would be rather difficult to achieve? If the political will is still there for a Hastings extension.

Meerkat · 21 Jan 2020

D365 said:
Would I be right to imagine that a 6x20m bi-mode would be rather difficult to achieve? If the political will is still there for a Hastings extension.

I really hope there isn’t the will for Hastings bimodes! Total pork barrel politics - throwing lots of money away when there is already a mainline to Hastings. Spend the money on speeding that one up if they must!

fgwrich · 21 Jan 2020

D365 said:
Would I be right to imagine that a 6x20m bi-mode would be rather difficult to achieve? If the political will is still there for a Hastings extension.

I was very much thinking on those lines too. While there may be the will for battery EMUs to replace the 171s up on the Uckfield line, nothing seems to have been decided for the Marshlink services yet. It is probable that the same units may also work the Marshlink services too, but there has been talk for some time to add Hastings into the SouthEastern High Speed services.

yorksrob · 21 Jan 2020

Good that services to Ashford are being debated.

It would have been even better if the proposed express service to Charing Cross via Tonbridge could have been raised as well. This could provide services to the heart of the West End in roughly an hour and help to releive pressure on high speed services, but has obviously been pushed back by the franchise confusion.

FOH · 21 Jan 2020

59CosG95 said:
395s have to be equipped with TVM as well as AWS/TPWS.

KVB as well I think

Poppysdad · 22 Jan 2020

I would take what is being said by a politician about the engineering complexities with a very large pinch of salt. Remember the Siemens Velaro's also operate on HS1 and I believe operate on 4 different power supplies with various european signalling systems, and asociated approval complexity. They along with Alstom may see the alledged complexity in a differant light

Roast Veg · 22 Jan 2020

The difference is that the velaro doesn't have to fit the UK loading gauge and is far, far longer. Much more space for equipment, and much closer to its foreign counterparts.

Wrt the Hastings line, the amount of difficulty involved in upgrading that route is immense. It's falling apart even with regular maintenance, and serves very small communities between Tunbridge Wells and Hastings - Robertsbridge and Battle being the most major of a small lot.

Meerkat · 22 Jan 2020

Roast Veg said:
The difference is that the velaro doesn't have to fit the UK loading gauge and is far, far longer. Much more space for equipment, and much closer to its foreign counterparts.

Wrt the Hastings line, the amount of difficulty involved in upgrading that route is immense. It's falling apart even with regular maintenance, and serves very small communities between Tunbridge Wells and Hastings - Robertsbridge and Battle being the most major of a small lot.

Why is it more difficult than other routes?
Start with “where is it slowest” and “is there enough power”?

Roast Veg · 22 Jan 2020

Well for starters, there are some very long tunnels that were reduced to single track when it was discovered that they needed relining. The slowest section for most services is waiting for a service in the opposite direction to clear the various single line sections. Then the twisting nature of the route (mostly around West St Leonard's after Bo Peep Junction and all the way up to Crowhurst, but there are other examples) is a huge speed restriction.

tbtc · 22 Jan 2020

It's a nice problem to have, in a way - I'm old enough to remember the days when people were moaning about the 395s sat idle, how they'd apparently ordered far too many, how nobody from Kent would want to go to St Pancras (because everyone wanted to use Charing Cross, like their fathers before them and their grandfathers before them)...

I hope that a solution is found, as this has been one of the biggest success stories of twenty first century railways (and is one that I don't think we talk about enough - possibly because it's a brand new line with brand new links, rather than a re-opening?)

Meerkat · 22 Jan 2020

tbtc said:
I hope that a solution is found, as this has been one of the biggest success stories of twenty first century railways (and is one that I don't think we talk about enough - possibly because it's a brand new line with brand new links, rather than a re-opening?)

I think you might need to define success. The line isn’t carrying the predicted traffic is it, nor is it covering its financing??

WesternLancer · 22 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
I really hope there isn’t the will for Hastings bimodes! Total pork barrel politics - throwing lots of money away when there is already a mainline to Hastings. Spend the money on speeding that one up if they must!

No need now - the seat was marginal but won with no probs in december - so the politicians will forget about it....

D365 · 22 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
I think you might need to define success. The line isn’t carrying the predicted traffic is it, nor is it covering its financing??

The CTRL I'd agree hasn't 100% fulfilled its potential, but the domestic services have obviously done very well for themselves. And there's no way that Eurostar could continue running to Waterloo in the long term.

class26 · 22 Jan 2020

D365 said:
The CTRL I'd agree hasn't 100% fulfilled its potential, but the domestic services have obviously done very well for themselves. And there's no way that Eurostar could continue running to Waterloo in the long term.

Meerkat said:
I think you might need to define success. The line isn’t carrying the predicted traffic is it, nor is it covering its financing??

That`s largely due to the advent of low cost airlines since the initial costing swere done. Now we are in a very different climate and I would expect that as time goes on short flights into europe will be discouraged in favour of the train.

HSTEd · 22 Jan 2020

How many spare paths are there?
Are they going to start running into platform issues at St Pancras? Although I suppose Fenchurch Street rather puts that into perspective doesn't it?

If they order stock they should order as many as they could possibly need, if they don't need them they can still do regular southern region work.

rdlover777 · 22 Jan 2020

first question, whats ECTS?
and secondly, cant Hitachi just make 29x6 new coaches for the existing 395s and extend them to 12 car units, would boost capacity and mean more 395s are available.

D365 · 22 Jan 2020

rdlover777 said:
first question, whats ECTS?

ETCS is European Train Control System, basically a standardised signalling system that will be rolled out throughout Europe.

rdlover777 said:
and secondly, cant Hitachi just make 29x6 new coaches for the existing 395s and extend them to 12 car units, would boost capacity and mean more 395s are available.

Class 395s don't run in pairs for the majority of services, especially in the off-peak.

Meerkat · 22 Jan 2020

Can St Pancras high speed cope with more passengers?
I have only been through at weekends and even then there is a big scrum for the limited number of gates!

rdlover777 · 22 Jan 2020

D365 said:
ETCS is European Train Control System, basically a standardised signalling system that will be rolled out throughout Europe.

and secondly, cant Hitachi just make 29x6 new coaches for the existing 395s and extend them to 12 car units, would boost capacity and mean more 395s are available.

Class 395s don't run in pairs for the majority of services, especially in the off-peak.[/QUOTE]
By 12 car, i mean 12 coaches per unit, meaning no need to double up 395s meaning more 395s will be available for peak times

D365 · 22 Jan 2020

rdlover777 said:
By 12 car, i mean 12 coaches per unit, meaning no need to double up 395s meaning more 395s will be available for peak times

So why not just build more six car units?

cossie4i · 22 Jan 2020

FOH said:
KVB as well I think

You are correct.
It’s only used for a very short section from the exit of London Tunnel 1 into St Pancras and vice versa.

Parliamentary debate on rolling stock on HS1

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