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Promise to Pay - Is it valid on Merseyrail

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joke2711

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Good Afternoon

So this morning the situation that at some point I was expecting finally happened.

My journey was as follows;

0712 Rainford to Kirkby
0728 Kirkby to Liverpool Central
0755 Liverpool Central to West Kirby (changing via the down escalator between platforms)

On arrival at Rainford Station and wishing to pay cash, obtained a promise to pay from the ticket machine. I did not see a guard on the short hop Rainford to Kirkby.

There was no time at Kirkby to exit the station to buy a ticket as the Merseyrail connection is very tight (but a valid connection).

On arrival at Liverpool Central I took the escalator from Northern to Wirral Lines and encountered a revenue block at the bottom of the escalator. When asked to show my ticket, I offered the promise to pay voucher and had cash in hand also ready to buy a ticket.

I got asked to go over to see his colleague where I answered where I had travelled from and why I hadn't purchased a ticket. I explained the process that I had undertaken and the inspector told me that promise to pay was a "Northern thing" and was not valid on the Merseyrail network. He stated that if I have been unable to buy a ticked on departure I should purchase one at Kirkby. I politely queried that I should not have to delay my journey at Kirkby to continue travel and that part of the journey is valid as it is an advertised connection. He reiterated that I should have to buy a ticket as soon as I arrive on the Merseyrail network and that he would be within his rights to issue me with a penalty fare notice. I politely stated again that I was not evading the fare and would happily buy a ticket from him now or delay my journey to buy one at Liverpool Central if he so wished. He stated that they did not have the ability to issue me a ticket there from a non merseyrail station. We talked about the NRCOT and that a passenger does not have to delay their journey .. I even said that I could obtain a promise to pay at Rainford for any station within the UK Rail Network but again he reiterated that they do not apply on Merseyrail.

After all this conversation he told me that my train was just arriving and to continue my journey.

I would also like to add that the Revenue Inspector was courteous, listened to what I was saying and never once accused my of being a fare dodger .. his primary concern was that promise to pay are not valid on the Merseyrail Network.

I am now in a quandary ... do I continue to do this and risk a Penalty Fare? .. as I am pretty sure that I was fortunate today and that next time there would be some recourse ...
 
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najaB

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I am now in a quandary ... do I continue to do this and risk a Penalty Fare? .. as I am pretty sure that I was fortunate today and that next time there would be some recourse ...
What does the Promise to Pay notice say exactly? Any chance you could post a picture of it?
 

sheff1

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There has been much discussion on here as to whether a Promise to Pay (PtP) notice has any legal standing at all. Leaving that aside, the NRCoT certainly apply to Merseyrail so the key is whether a card only TVM is a "means of purchasing a Ticket" as per Condition 6.1.1. Again that has been a topic of discussion.

If you take the view that a TVM is not a means of purchasing for someone who wants to use cash you might prefer not to proffer a PtP on Merseyrail and, instead, just ask for the required ticket. Obviously your PtP will be available should the RPI etc ask for proof you started at Rainford.
 

Bletchleyite

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Promise to Pay is indeed not relevant to Merseyrail, it's a Northern thing specific to their PF scheme. However, if you were unable to obtain a ticket at your origin you don't have to delay your journey to buy a ticket at a connecting point. Therefore Merseyrail should just sell a ticket at the barrier or if they can't let you proceed.

However, Merseyrail are a law unto themselves.

Do you have a card and could you buy using that instead? That would be the best way, practically, to avoid this Merseyrail insularity causing you an issue.
 

joke2711

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Promise to Pay is indeed not relevant to Merseyrail, it's a Northern thing specific to their PF scheme. However, if you were unable to obtain a ticket at your origin you don't have to delay your journey to buy a ticket at a connecting point. Therefore Merseyrail should just sell a ticket at the barrier or if they can't let you proceed.

However, Merseyrail are a law unto themselves.

Do you have a card and could you buy using that instead? That would be the best way, practically, to avoid this Merseyrail insularity causing you an issue.

I do have a card but as I travel so much on business I put my claimable expenditure on my card and pay cash if normal commute. It is easier to manage expenses this way.
 

najaB

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Attached is the promise to pay permit ..
Thanks for that. I wanted to be sure of the wording - it says "...or your destination station..." which, to my mind at least, is clear permission to travel and does not say anywhere that travel is limited to a specific TOC. If the intention is that the PtP is only valid on Northern services then they need to state such on the permit.
 

joke2711

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Thanks for that. I wanted to be sure of the wording - it says "...or your destination station..." which, to my mind at least, is clear permission to travel and does not say anywhere that travel is limited to a specific TOC. If the intention is that the PtP is only valid on Northern services then they need to state such on the permit.

Thank you and I agree fully with your viewpoint, however Mr Revenue Inspector was saying that I should buy my ticket at Kirkby and delay my journey .. even stating that 10 minutes is the minimum connection time at stations when journey planner states that a 6 minute on-time connection is valid at Kirkby.

It is a weird one ..
 

gray1404

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You did the correct thing not delaying your journey at Kirby or Liverpool Central. You did the right thing in obtaining a Promise to Pay notice and you were yet to be given an opportunity to purchase. This situation could arrive in a number of situations on Merseyrail. Ormskirk, Kirby, Southport, Bidston to name a few all connect onto the Merseyrail network from lines with unmanned stations.

The member of staff gave you incorrect information and he would have had no basis whatsoever for being able to charge you a Penalty Fare. Furthermore, he was wrong to treat you, or say he could treat you as if, you joined the train at Kirby without a valid ticket. The point is you joined at a station without ticket selling facilities accepted your chosen (and totally valid) payment method so were yet to have an opportunity to purchase. I would go long this line of inquiry rather then confusing the matter with a Promise to Pay.

I would certainly report what happened to Merseyrail. It is so important there staff are reminded of the correct procedure to follow and do not mistreat customers. Even the conversation he had with you was wrong and should not have happened. I suspect Merseyrail may not understand on first read the essence of your complaint so you may have to write back to them, asking for a Manager to review and respond before getting a satisfactory reply. I would be looking for assurances from them that they understand the National Rail Conditions of Travel and they will ensure their staff understand that customers joining at stations off their network are not required to delay their journey to buy a ticket if there is not enough time.

I am assuming you were able to purchase a ticket once you arrived at your destination from the booking office.
 

WesternLancer

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Thanks for that. I wanted to be sure of the wording - it says "...or your destination station..." which, to my mind at least, is clear permission to travel and does not say anywhere that travel is limited to a specific TOC. If the intention is that the PtP is only valid on Northern services then they need to state such on the permit.
exactly - how would any reasonable person be expected to know from that which train operators did or did not claim to accept these. Appalling service and very bad grasp of the rules.
 

gray1404

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Also, I believe in order to obtain the promise to pay on the Northern TVM the OP have to select their destination and a specific departure (with connections). It is therefore most clear, in terms of what is selected on the screen, the P2P is issued in conjunction with an itinerary.

5 minutes is a minimum connection time at Kirkby. Nevertheless, you are entitled to go straight to the next departing train even if this is sooner then the minimum time if there isn't time to get a ticket. For example, you arrived at Liverpool Central at 07:46. There is a 10 minimum minimum connection time there so your next "valid" connect would be to 08.10 to West Kirkby. However, you are not required to delay you journey and are quite entitled to, as you did, proceed straight for the 07:55 as there wasn't enough time for you to go to the ticket office and buy a ticket within that 9 minutes and get back to the platform for the next train.

Really bad conduct from Merseyrail. They are a National Rail TOC and the rules DO apply to them.
 
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joke2711

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Hi, I will email Merseyrail and once I get a response will update you.
At least it has been agreed that I haven't done anything wrong .. it would be good to have something in writing to show as it is likely to happen again.
 

scrapy

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Presumably you bought your ticket on arrival at West Kirby assuming the ticket office was open. If so you did nothing wrong.
 

Starmill

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What I would do in that situation is the same thing I always do when travelling with Northern: dispense a "promise to pay" and zip it up in my bag. When I get to speak to the guard on the train, or staff at a interchange station or my destination, I just ask to buy the ticket I need, without offering the "promise to pay". If someone asked me for the "promise to pay", I would show it to them. So far, nobody has. There is no need to have a discussion about them with Merseyrail staff, so I wouldn't bother to.

I have often been challenged while doing this before these were introduced, and on one occasion was even made to give my name and address because the staff couldn't issue a ticket. Both companies have a very poor record when it comes to sticking with the facts and the law where revenue protection is concerned.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Presumably you bought your ticket on arrival at West Kirby assuming the ticket office was open. If so you did nothing wrong.
I'm inclined to agree.

The difficulty is that if someone was looking to fare-dodge between Rainford and West Kirby, this is exactly what they would do - although it is also exactly what you would do if travelling between those points and wanting to be as quick as possible and to pay in cash. The distinction would only become clear at West Kirby ticket office ( which the honest traveller would go into to buy the ticket, while the dodger would walk straight past).

So the action to take really depends on a combination of the value of the OP's time, their appetite for adversarial discussions with railway staff, and how vigorous Merseyrail's enforcement is. If being stopped prior to buying a ticket at West Kirby is going to be frequent, it might be worth getting written confirmation that this approach is acceptable: alternatively it might be worth biting the bullet and either paying by plastic at Rainford, or accepting a 15 minute delay at Kirkby or Central, and buying a ticket there. As I say, that would be a personal choice between how much you want to insist on your rights against how much you want a quiet life.
 
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clagmonster

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The alternative, which the passenger is not obligated to do, would be to seek out the guard the train from Rainford to Kirkby. This would probably be easiest done by approaching them at their local door, most likely at the rear and certainly in the rear unit as you board the train. Of course the downside of that is you get a longer walk between trains at Kirkby.
 

Brissle Girl

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I do have a card but as I travel so much on business I put my claimable expenditure on my card and pay cash if normal commute. It is easier to manage expenses this way.
An alternative is to have two cards (which most people do, if only one debit and one credit). Or if credit is important to you take out a second credit card. Then separate expenditure accordingly.

I know it doesn't deflect from what the railway should or shouldn't be doing, but in terms of making your life easier, it seems like a quick and no cost win. And you don't need to worry about having enough cash on you for the fare every day either, it's quicker and easier with contactless, and you then don't need to be delayed on or at the end of your journey finding somewhere to pay.
 

joke2711

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All very valid points about card versus cash .. but I shouldn't have to change my preferred payment method.
I have emailed Merseyrail and await a response.

Thoughts are now with what I should do if the situation happens again. Speaking to a fellow traveller on my return journey last Friday who exits at Moorfields .. he stated the the issue of Penalty Fares with Promise to Pay holding Passengers is rife and passengers are being pulled over and treated this way once they get to the barriers. If you were a serial fare evader .. you would know that you can't exit at Moorfields without leaving via controlled barriers so it does appear that the system is fundamentally flawed against honest fare paying passengers.

As for buying a season ticket .. my office commute is 2/3 days max per week if at all .. so that option isn't really cost effective.
 

Fawkes Cat

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All very valid points about card versus cash .. but I shouldn't have to change my preferred payment method.
No, you shouldn't have to. But rather than living in a world where everyone respects every rule, we live in one made up of fallible humans, most of whom (thankfully) do their best to make everything work.

And the fallible humans on this list suggest that your life would be easier if you were - one way or another - to compromise. You choose not to. That's fine, but it most likely means that you will continue to rub up against the fallible humans who protect Merseyrail's revenue.
 

Mainline421

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Seems clear enough that a "Promise to pay" is just a (stupidly named) Permit to Travel for the value of £0, which covers all operators of course.
 

HSP 2

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All it is saying is that you don't or won't pay at a TVM due to you only having cash or cheques and not a cash card. But you should pay at the first chance that you can. But if you then try to pay using a card you could be charged the full fare and have the penalty fare added on top.
 

Bovverboy

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I did not see a guard on the short hop Rainford to Kirkby.

The 'short hop' from Rainford to Kirkby is a distance of over five miles, scheduled to take eight minutes. Who despatched the train at Rainford?
 

gray1404

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I have never had my ticket checked on boarding at Rainford heading towards Kirkby but I have when heading towards Wigan. The guard is most likely preparing his/her belongings as they have to change ends and might not always have a long turn around. Some misinformation has also appeared on the thread relating to one possibly receiving both a penalty fare and the usual fare.
 

joke2711

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All it is saying is that you don't or won't pay at a TVM due to you only having cash or cheques and not a cash card. But you should pay at the first chance that you can. But if you then try to pay using a card you could be charged the full fare and have the penalty fare added on top.

and on the morning in question I only had cash with me .. and the first opportunity to pay without delaying my journey would have been on arrival at my destination station.
 

joke2711

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The 'short hop' from Rainford to Kirkby is a distance of over five miles, scheduled to take eight minutes. Who despatched the train at Rainford?

It would have been the Guard who was disinterested in selling tickets on board the train. This morning the very polite Guard was through the train within 1 minute asking for tickets from Rainford. She had obviously done this on departing each intermediate station and was fully aware of who had boarded where ...
 

joke2711

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Can you provide a source for this ?

This is in the terms of obtaining a promise to pay ... as this is valid for cash payments only.
The promise to pay states "You must pay this fare in full by cash only or you will incur a penalty fare"
A picture of the promise to pay permit is on post #5
 

HSP 2

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My wording could have been better, like it will be the full fare with the penalty added on top.
 

sheff1

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This is in the terms of obtaining a promise to pay ... as this is valid for cash payments only.
The promise to pay states "You must pay this fare in full by cash only or you will incur a penalty fare"
A picture of the promise to pay permit is on post #5

Leaving aside the dubious legality of the Promise to Pay (covered in depth elsewhere), the wording quoted says nothing about paying the full fare and having the penalty fare added on top - it is this I was interested in seeing a source for.
 
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