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GNER White Rose Questions

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ryan125hst

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I've got a couple of questions regarding the use of the North of London Class 373's by GNER.

They were introduced in 2000 and originally ran to York. What was the reason that they were introduced? Was it to cover for the Class 91's being overhauled- this was the major rebuild which I believe happened before the Mallard refurb which commenced in 2003. Or was it separate to this and simply to add capacity?

I have found that they went off lease in December 2005 (presumably at the timetable change?) which was after the Mallard refurbishment program was competed, so they do appear to be linked.

Regarding their formation, the ticket wallet from 2002 (attached) shows the formation as:

Powercar-A-B-C-D-F-G-H-K-M-P-R-S-T-V-Powercar

Where:
A-D and R-V is Standard Class
G-H is First Class
F and P are the buffet cars

I have seen some videos online from late 2004 and 2005 and they appeared to alter the lettering of them. Presumably this occurred at the same time the HST and 225 letters were changed during the Mallard refurbishment work, likely to make reservations easier between differing formations.

The new lettering seemed to be as follows:

Powercar-B-C-D-E-?-K-L-M-P-?-S-T-V-X-Powercar

Where:
B-E and S-X is Standard Class
K-P is First Class
The buffet cars (marked ?) don't appear to carry a letter.

Judging by the gaps in the lettering, was a letter assigned to the buffet cars? I don't think the letters in the original lettering system were shown externally but were shown on the ticket wallet. Were they shown inside the carriage?

Was the penultimate carriage from the powercar V or W? I have only been able to work this out from videos and the resolution wasn't the best in 2005!

Was anything ever published to show the changes made to the lettering by GNER, whether be on a ticket wallet or leaflet? A newsgroup shows the lettering scheme introduced in 2004, although the ones posted about the White Rose sets is the old scheme. I don't know if they were changed later than the HST's and 225's? The lettering is shown at the bottom of the page: https://uk.railway.narkive.com/G2DJRNvk/gner-ic225-coach-letters
 

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Failed Unit

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They were introduced because nothing was available. The losing a mk4 set in the Hatfield & Heck accidents made them lease another. (The first was in service before Hatfield)

They were returned because more HSTs can available. If I remember correctly from MML after the introduction of the 222s.
 

delt1c

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Traveled on them a few times from KX to Leeds and can say in the 1st class they were a vast leap forward compared to the unrefurbished Mk4's. Strange thing was if i remember correctly they were limited to 110mph
 

hexagon789

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Traveled on them a few times from KX to Leeds and can say in the 1st class they were a vast leap forward compared to the unrefurbished Mk4's. Strange thing was if i remember correctly they were limited to 110mph

Initially in some places, I think Newark-Grantham was one, but I believe that was later relaxed. It was due issues with the use of two pantographs at 125mph iirc.
 
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I only travelled on a 'White Rose' service once, from Kings Cross to Peterborough, a week before the Hatfield accident. They were a nightmare to operate, with selective door opening required because of their length, and had excessive station dwell times due to the door layout. The Leeds services had more intermediate calls then. They were also power-hungry, with the ECML supply being even weaker than now. They would have been better employed on the Edinburgh run, but were banned north of York because of gauging issues and power supply problems.
 

30907

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I used these a couple of times. They rode incredibly bouncily (is that a word?) over pointwork, as well as the other issues mentioned above.

GNER originally promised to convert redundant Mk3 sleepers, found this cost too much (AIUI from another recent thread, there were serious structural issues), and this was a way out - the NoL sets having been redundant almost from the start.
 

Welshman

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I only travelled on a 'White Rose' service once, from Kings Cross to Peterborough, a week before the Hatfield accident. They were a nightmare to operate, with selective door opening required because of their length, and had excessive station dwell times due to the door layout. The Leeds services had more intermediate calls then. They were also power-hungry, with the ECML supply being even weaker than now. They would have been better employed on the Edinburgh run, but were banned north of York because of gauging issues and power supply problems.

I seem to remember the first southbound service of the day was terminated short at Peterborough, with the first northbound starting there, because of power supply problems between there and the Cross during the peak hours.
 

DPWH

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if they were too long, why didn't they just take some trailers out?
 

Failed Unit

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if they were too long, why didn't they just take some trailers out?
Performance. The train was designed to be this length with articulated bogies. Take cars out you need to reprogram the train and it doesn’t stop as well. I am sure it could be fixed. But SDO on 2 coaches was the cheaper solution.
 

Spartacus

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Wasn't there some use of the original 3 class system for a time, or a trial of a new one? I'm sure they had a couple of carriages dedicated to it, and these were frequently empty as the tickets could only be booked through a GNER booking office or through their website? That may tie in with the altered lettering, could have been the buffets with the non-standard seating class.

Travelled on them quite a lot after the Voyagers were introduced. Rather than travelling to Leeds from Birmingham all the way on one of those heaps I'd usually do one to Doncaster for a connection with one of these.
 

ryan125hst

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They were introduced because nothing was available. The losing a mk4 set in the Hatfield & Heck accidents made them lease another. (The first was in service before Hatfield)

They were returned because more HSTs can available. If I remember correctly from MML after the introduction of the 222s.

So they were basically to add capacity before additional HST's came along (two additional sets plus lengthening all sets in 2003/4 and two more sets in 2006)? It can't have been an easy or cheap thing to do but GNER clearly needed the capacity and it worked for them.

I saw them a few times at Retford, but only traveled on one once in 2003. It must have been the May half term, and it was the first time I went to London when I was about 8. Our train we had reserved seats on was cancelled, but they must have stopped another train at Retford. I remember we didn't have a seat because of this so I was upset that I couldn't wave to my Grandparents as we were in the vestibule and I was too small to see out the door. The train manager said there was more space on the train behind over the PA, so we got off at Newark. A 373 turned up and I can remember the train manager saying that we weren't leaving until everyone was on this train - yep, it was packed! We stood in the aisle all the way to London! I seem to think we came back on an unrefurbished 225 but had no issues with that journey.

Wasn't there some use of the original 3 class system for a time, or a trial of a new one? I'm sure they had a couple of carriages dedicated to it, and these were frequently empty as the tickets could only be booked through a GNER booking office or through their website? That may tie in with the altered lettering, could have been the buffets with the non-standard seating class.

Travelled on them quite a lot after the Voyagers were introduced. Rather than travelling to Leeds from Birmingham all the way on one of those heaps I'd usually do one to Doncaster for a connection with one of these.

I have seen mention of this but it isn't shown on the ticket wallet that shows the formations. What years did they have silver standard (as it was called)? Presumably those passengers were seated in the nearest standard class coach to the buffet car?
 

WesternLancer

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So they were basically to add capacity before additional HST's came along (two additional sets plus lengthening all sets in 2003/4 and two more sets in 2006)? It can't have been an easy or cheap thing to do but GNER clearly needed the capacity and it worked for them.

I saw them a few times at Retford, but only traveled on one once in 2003. It must have been the May half term, and it was the first time I went to London when I was about 8. Our train we had reserved seats on was cancelled, but they must have stopped another train at Retford. I remember we didn't have a seat because of this so I was upset that I couldn't wave to my Grandparents as we were in the vestibule and I was too small to see out the door. The train manager said there was more space on the train behind over the PA, so we got off at Newark. A 373 turned up and I can remember the train manager saying that we weren't leaving until everyone was on this train - yep, it was packed! We stood in the aisle all the way to London! I seem to think we came back on an unrefurbished 225 but had no issues with that journey.



I have seen mention of this but it isn't shown on the ticket wallet that shows the formations. What years did they have silver standard (as it was called)? Presumably those passengers were seated in the nearest standard class coach to the buffet car?
Wasn't silver standard just a BR Inter City thing, or did GNER continue the concept?

I enjoyed a few White Rose trips around that time, usually from Grantham. In my view it would have made good sense to keep them on the ECML to add capacity longer term.
I'm sure I used it on the day i went to Heathrow to see the last Concorde flight come in.
 

WesternLancer

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Assuming you mean the NoL sets if they were available (they aren't), not that useful for a number of reasons
No doubt - but I think a passenger shoe horned onto a short formed 5 car Azuma set instead of a longer diagrammed train (as I was before Christmas), and forced to stand whole journey in vestibule etc would rather they had one to travel on!
 

hexagon789

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No doubt - but I think a passenger shoe horned onto a short formed 5 car Azuma set instead of a longer diagrammed train (as I was before Christmas), and forced to stand whole journey in vestibule etc would rather they had one to travel on!

Granted, I can fully understand passenger frustrations with short-forms, but in practical terms there would be too many issues to use the NoL sets regularly again if one could even use them.
 

tbtc

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What was the reason that they were introduced? Was it to cover for the Class 91's being overhauled- this was the major rebuild which I believe happened before the Mallard refurb which commenced in 2003. Or was it separate to this and simply to add capacity?

It's not that long ago, but feels much longer - back then there was only one train per hour from Leeds to London (and only one train north of Newcastle in many hours - only a couple of Cross Country services very early/late in the day, Kings Cross to Edinburgh wasn't properly half hourly) - so if GNER wanted to beef up the frequency there wasn't much around to use (until the Voyagers and Meridians at other TOCs permitted a cascade of HSTs).

Maybe if they could have held off a year or two they'd have introduced some "long" 180/220/221/222 equivalents but things were pretty tight at the millennium time, no new trains were ordered for a thousand days and the British Rail culture of "trying to squeeze more out of shorter trains (rather than investing in full length ones)" was still prevalent.
 

edwin_m

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How many platforms at Kings Cross could fit them?

Another problem was the pantographs. I believe they were still part of the Eurostar operational fleet so needed to remain compatible with operation to the Continent, for which they carried a pantograph that was designed for high speed operation on a fixed wire height and not really suited to the more flimsy and undulating ECML overhead. This was, I think, part of the reason to limit them to 110mph.

In fact I think some have blamed the number of ECML dewirements in the following years on the punishment they gave to the OLE, although it could well just have been lack of maintenance in the Railtrack era or just under-design.
 

edwin_m

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True, buti I’d be surprised if alternatives couldn’t have been fitted had the will been there to do so
But the alternatives would have made it impossible to return a unit to Eurostar duty without swapping them back. From what I read at the time that was an essential requirement, even for GNER-liveried sets. Probably they shared a common pool of spare units so could be swapped at the start of the day if there was a problem somewhere.
 

43096

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But the alternatives would have made it impossible to return a unit to Eurostar duty without swapping them back. From what I read at the time that was an essential requirement, even for GNER-liveried sets. Probably they shared a common pool of spare units so could be swapped at the start of the day if there was a problem somewhere.
That’s correct. Quite why Eurostar specified that, I don’t know, as by then they never used the NoL sets themselves.
 

MatthewRead

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I've got a couple of questions regarding the use of the North of London Class 373's by GNER.

They were introduced in 2000 and originally ran to York. What was the reason that they were introduced? Was it to cover for the Class 91's being overhauled- this was the major rebuild which I believe happened before the Mallard refurb which commenced in 2003. Or was it separate to this and simply to add capacity?

I have found that they went off lease in December 2005 (presumably at the timetable change?) which was after the Mallard refurbishment program was competed, so they do appear to be linked.

Regarding their formation, the ticket wallet from 2002 (attached) shows the formation as:

Powercar-A-B-C-D-F-G-H-K-M-P-R-S-T-V-Powercar

Where:
A-D and R-V is Standard Class
G-H is First Class
F and P are the buffet cars

I have seen some videos online from late 2004 and 2005 and they appeared to alter the lettering of them. Presumably this occurred at the same time the HST and 225 letters were changed during the Mallard refurbishment work, likely to make reservations easier between differing formations.

The new lettering seemed to be as follows:

Powercar-B-C-D-E-?-K-L-M-P-?-S-T-V-X-Powercar

Where:
B-E and S-X is Standard Class
K-P is First Class
The buffet cars (marked ?) don't appear to carry a letter.

Judging by the gaps in the lettering, was a letter assigned to the buffet cars? I don't think the letters in the original lettering system were shown externally but were shown on the ticket wallet. Were they shown inside the carriage?

Was the penultimate carriage from the powercar V or W? I have only been able to work this out from videos and the resolution wasn't the best in 2005!

Was anything ever published to show the changes made to the lettering by GNER, whether be on a ticket wallet or leaflet? A newsgroup shows the lettering scheme introduced in 2004, although the ones posted about the White Rose sets is the old scheme. I don't know if they were changed later than the HST's and 225's? The lettering is shown at the bottom of the page: https://uk.railway.narkive.com/G2DJRNvk/gner-ic225-coach-letters
I thought the Mallard project did start in 2000 hence the use of 373's. I know the white rose service commenced running on 30th May 2000 and lasted for 2 years before the 373's were then switched to the Leeds services. They couldn't run north of York up to Edinburgh because of the clearance and power supply issues!
 

johnnychips

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Much as I liked the sets, they invariably fouled the points at the north end of platform one at Doncaster and made my TPE train to the airport late on 3B.
 

hexagon789

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But the alternatives would have made it impossible to return a unit to Eurostar duty without swapping them back. From what I read at the time that was an essential requirement, even for GNER-liveried sets. Probably they shared a common pool of spare units so could be swapped at the start of the day if there was a problem somewhere.

It was, it was also why GNER developed removeable modular catering equipment for them. That way they could offer a cooked breakfast service on the sets and still enable them to be quickly returned to Eurostar if needed.
 

sprinterguy

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Maybe if they could have held off a year or two they'd have introduced some "long" 180/220/221/222 equivalents but things were pretty tight at the millennium time, no new trains were ordered for a thousand days and the British Rail culture of "trying to squeeze more out of shorter trains (rather than investing in full length ones)" was still prevalent.
GNER were actually looking at ordering a handful of Pendolinos before the availability of the Eurostar sets became apparent and removed the need.
gner pendolino.jpg
 

sprinterguy

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Looks a bit odd with the yellow warning panel done like that, but other than that I think it works!

Were they going to be 8/9-car or shorter?
Someone may have better powers of recall than me, but I believe they were going to be 9-car sets. I seem to remember about 4 trains being mooted, presumably piggy-backing onto the much larger Virgin Trains order.
 

WesternLancer

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Someone may have better powers of recall than me, but I believe they were going to be 9-car sets. I seem to remember about 4 trains being mooted, presumably piggy-backing onto the much larger Virgin Trains order.
Long term this would probably have been a good plan, tho assume the White Rose NoL sets was a quicker and cheaper option, and then more HSTs (nearly 20 year old) would have been on the horizon I guess, and also good value....
Early example of UK privatised rail deciding long term planning 'not our problem'?

I must say I'd forgotten about it.

Aren't we still waiting for those Parkway stations GNER was going to build on the ECML (1 somewhere near Doncaster IIRC?)
 

hexagon789

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Someone may have better powers of recall than me, but I believe they were going to be 9-car sets. I seem to remember about 4 trains being mooted, presumably piggy-backing onto the much larger Virgin Trains order.

Interesting times, I do recall reading about GNER proposing obtaining some Pendolinos, but never any firm details.
 
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