Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 10,403
They’re stabling at Kettering ain’t they? Do the splits/joins there?
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
New trains for East Midlands Franchise
- Thread starter supervc-10
- Start date
- Status
They’re stabling at Kettering ain’t they? Do the splits/joins there?
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Failed Unit
Established Member
Still got the problem with drivers. It used to take about 5 mins at WGC to split the 317s which included making sure everyone could walk between sets (as they didn’t use the corridor connection).
Don’t get me wrong. I think running 12 coaches all day isn’t a good idea. It is just what EMR say they will do. They will be short of drivers at the beginning anyway as they train them up. But that will improve. Be interesting what the loading are like off peak once they get running and how it impacts Thameslink. I can see them needing 8 all day as Bedford and Luton could prefer them (or not if they want to head / change in the core) we will see when the “Luton Airport Express” is the preferred choice for airport passengers.
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 10,403
Running 12 cars in the peak will be needed because there will be a shift of commuters from using Thameslink at Bedford, Luton and Luton Parkway onto the faster EMR Electrics and a shift of leisure users at weekends.
Off Peak I’m not sure we need 12 cars but we see.
There is a different concept of full off peak.
Commuters would be fine with every seat being full but no one having to stand.
From experience of SWT/SWR standard weekend shortforming that doesn’t go down well off peak.
Having lots of space to spread out is attractive for leisure users.
Commuters would be fine with every seat being full but no one having to stand.
From experience of SWT/SWR standard weekend shortforming that doesn’t go down well off peak.
Having lots of space to spread out is attractive for leisure users.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Two reasons for that.
First of all, most off-peak travel is families and small groups, who like to sit together. Commuters typically travel alone (insistently so - you do get small groups but not very often).
Secondly, when competing with the car people want the equivalent of the car - a unit of seats exclusive to their group.
You can say "tough", but then you lose passengers to the car.
Exactly - SWR is ridiculous on Saturdays. Families with young kids getting on and finding they have to stand or sit at different ends of a carriage, with luggage everywhere. How much does it really cost to hang an extra unit on the back?
Families with young kids/babies also like more seats because they tend to have lots of small bags they need repeated access to.
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,268
SWT/SWR weekend formations have lengthened over the years, particularly on the main line. Still many single units out on the suburban side; of course the Aventras will fix this as a big proportion are fixed 10-car sets.
Some routes - Windsor and Reading for example - are generally maximum length already.
Failed Unit
Established Member
[QUOTE="Meerkat, post: 4390930, member: 62994]How much does it really cost to hang an extra unit on the back?
[/QUOTE]
Maybe that is how they win all the golden spanner’s
but I agree there is nothing more frustrating then standing on a full train and passing a full depot of empty stock
[/QUOTE]
Maybe that is how they win all the golden spanner’s
but I agree there is nothing more frustrating then standing on a full train and passing a full depot of empty stock
londonmidland
Established Member
Not sure which thread is the best to post in about this, but on a regular basis, it seems a lot of people mistake getting the XX:35 local stopping Leicester service all the way to Leicester, from Nottingham.
As opposed to the faster XX:45 HST service, which can leave Nottingham quite empty.
As opposed to the faster XX:45 HST service, which can leave Nottingham quite empty.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
It's difficult to do splits at an intermediate station as crew would have to ensure there were no passengers in the unit that's going to the sidings. This would probably be done by locking that unit out at St Pancras, but then there could be delays at the intermediate stations (potentially impacting on the critical timings of Thameslink) as people try to board the locked-out part.
A common strategy for peak strengthening is for alternate workings at the end of the peak to be run to sidings as full-length trains, with the others then being split in the platform to form the next two return journeys (and the reverse at the start of the evening peak). This uses half as many ECS paths and drivers as splitting/joining each working individually, but does need extra platform space because the train that splits will still be in the station when the next one arrives. Hence it wouldn't work at Corby where ECS paths would be possible to/from Kettering, but there is only one platform. It might not work at St Pancras either as the platforms will be fairly heavily used and ECS paths to/from Cricklewood are more difficult. The other problem is that it doesn't work for reducing 12-car to 8-car, and a three-way version of the same idea to split down to 4-car would need even more platform capacity.
So all in all I agree with Failed Unit that there are likely to be a lot of 12-car units in the off-peak periods.
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 10,403
Umm so how did WAGN, FCC and GN cope at Cambridge and Peterborough?
Not sure if it still runs but at Peterborough you used to have a evening service arrive from London formed of either 8 or 12 cars (I can’t remember) that split with the London portion forming one service while the Peterborough portion was shut down to form a later service.
Not sure if it still runs but at Peterborough you used to have a evening service arrive from London formed of either 8 or 12 cars (I can’t remember) that split with the London portion forming one service while the Peterborough portion was shut down to form a later service.
Class 466
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Mar 2010
- Messages
- 1,423
Remember the DFT aren’t actually setting up new franchises currently, so it will be GTRs problem in their Direct Award...
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I can't really comment on Cambridge without knowing exactly which operation you are referring to. It's a while since I've been there but as far as I know the regular arrangement is to drop a unit off the back of the Kings Lynn train, which is attached soon afterwards to the front of the next working from Kings Lynn to London. This doesn't involve any ECS moves although it does tie up a platform for a period.
For the arrangement you mention at Peterborough to work, there must be enough platforms available to take other services while the portion is sitting in the platform waiting to return to London. That's exactly what isn't possible at Corby as I posted above, as there is only one platform there.
Class 170101
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 7,933
Is there not a siding at Corby? Wasn't there a passenger train that had to shunt clear to allow a freight train to pass up towards London?
If so is this siding being wired?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Don't know and don't know, but if the train has to shunt to a siding it may need extra turnaround time and if it is split in the platform and one half driven to a siding it needs another driver.
Helvellyn
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Aug 2009
- Messages
- 2,012
I suspect attaching/detaching of Class 360 units will mainly occur at Kettering given that they are building a stabling point and EMR are setting up a Train Crew Depot there.
Raul_Duke
Member
- Joined
- 29 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 397
The sidings at Corby have been wired.
ChrisC
Established Member
I saw one of the GA 156/9’s on the Robin Hood Line today complete with its dirty white livery with orange doors. I know that these units are supposedly only here on a temporary basis to allow the withdrawal of some 153’s. Although Stagecoach may have had its faults we did get many years of well looked after trains both inside and outside on local services. Even with the arrival of the 170’s, whenever that happens, the East Midlands will get trains from different sources in various colours. No new trains for regional EMR services but hopefully not cast offs from elsewhere in poor condition.
I also saw a 158 on the Robin Hood Line today. 158’s seem to be on the Robin Hood Line quite often running throughout the day more frequent recently. It seems strange that 156’s and 153’s are so often going to Liverpool these days when 158’s are on more local services. Hopefully Abellio are not going down the random unit allocation path that Northern have so often been accused of in the past.
I also saw a 158 on the Robin Hood Line today. 158’s seem to be on the Robin Hood Line quite often running throughout the day more frequent recently. It seems strange that 156’s and 153’s are so often going to Liverpool these days when 158’s are on more local services. Hopefully Abellio are not going down the random unit allocation path that Northern have so often been accused of in the past.
I really did feel sorry for some of the passengers tonight - the 15:51 Liverpool to Norwich was formed of 2x 153 (1 ex. FGW/GWR) and a 156. This was an hour late and terminated at Nottingham. Any passengers for beyond Nottingham were chucked off at Sheffield as the next EMR service only goes as far as Nottingham; and they instead had to endure at least a three-stage journey with changes at Doncaster and Peterborough.
Apparently there's a large question over how the 360s will be crewed.
One member of staff needed per unit. No end gangways and 12 car operation means 3 members of staff per train.
Not very efficient in terms of staffing at all but I understand why they've gone for these units and not any from the Electrostar family.
One member of staff needed per unit. No end gangways and 12 car operation means 3 members of staff per train.
Not very efficient in terms of staffing at all but I understand why they've gone for these units and not any from the Electrostar family.
OTRail
Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2019
- Messages
- 529
https://uckfieldnews.com/battery-operated-trains-for-uckfield-train-line/
Seems Southern aren’t willing to let go of their 171s until a confirmed plan is in place for their replacements - completely different to TPE’s 170 situation...
Seems Southern aren’t willing to let go of their 171s until a confirmed plan is in place for their replacements - completely different to TPE’s 170 situation...
43074
Established Member
- Joined
- 10 Oct 2012
- Messages
- 2,017
.... Or St Pancras with empty stock workings to Bedford Cauldwell Walk depot between the peaks for maintenance.
Southern Dvr
Member
- Joined
- 13 Oct 2010
- Messages
- 876
Of course it actually has naff all to do with Southern/GTR though, if the DfT who pay the bills and keep the lights on say the 171s are offski then they are offski!
Fincra5
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Jun 2009
- Messages
- 2,489
The DfT pay GTR to run the franchise, the DfT pull the strings. I can't see them wanting to upset the commuters again by leaving them with no trains! 
Especially when EMR currently has stock to use!
Especially when EMR currently has stock to use!WillPS
Established Member
Is there any reason why Southern couldn't make do with Super Sprinters for a bit?
Fincra5
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Jun 2009
- Messages
- 2,489
Many reasons... SDO, Lack of Compatibility with Class 171s... etc.
Baxenden Bank
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Oct 2013
- Messages
- 4,017
Surely it all depends on who is the leasee.
hooverboy
On Moderation
- Joined
- 12 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 1,372
it depends on who is paying the most for sure!
until that bit of paper has a signature on the dotted line, nothing is legally binding,and money talks.
If GTR have inserted caveats in their contract stating release to happen upon procurement of suitable alternative then it is their call.
if ROSCO have agreed a set lease date from GTR with no caveat, then ROSCO are free to do with the units as they please after lease expires
WillPS
Established Member
Although of course DfT could make a sublease back happen, we've been there before.
Helvellyn
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Aug 2009
- Messages
- 2,012
Could be although Kettering to Bedford is a shorter ECS run. And less congested. Especially on the slow lines.
I would have thought ECS to/from St Pancras would more likely be 804s to Cricklewood.
- Status