RPI blitz at Derby this evening.

Mugby · 23 Jan 2020

I passed through Derby Station this evening just after 1700 and EMR's RPIs were having a peak time blitz. Both entrances, the station front and Pride Park had the gatelines operating with the usual staff in attendance plus RPIs to deal with any irregularities.

Also, tickets of intending passengers were being checked on the footbridge at the top of the steps leading to platforms 5 and 6, but apparently not those of arriving passengers. Thus, passengers travelling would be having their tickets checked twice, first at the gateline and again at steps leading to their respective platforms.

I thought this was overkill, really, was it necessary to check tickets twice? Is this sort of arrangement also practised at other locations?

RailUK Forums

StephenHunter · 23 Jan 2020

Having them at the stairs would cover any interchange passengers, I guess.

PHILIPE · 23 Jan 2020

Everyday event on TFW harrassing people at stations.

Raul_Duke · 23 Jan 2020

PHILIPE said:
Everyday event on TFW harrassing people at stations.

Harassing........?

45107 · 23 Jan 2020

PHILIPE said:
Everyday event on TFW harrassing people at stations.

Checking entitlement to be on the premises is harassment ?

Scotrail84 · 23 Jan 2020

PHILIPE said:
Everyday event on TFW harrassing people at stations.

You can be asked to show your ticket by any authorised railway employee anywhere on railway premises, and that is not limited to just once either.

js1000 · 23 Jan 2020

I think there are far too many RPIs (often working on poor fixed term conditions I hasten to add) personally when you consider how many franchises are having serious staffing problems with lack of drivers which is not acceptable.

The other morning I boarded a 6 coach service with new trains into Manchester. A couple of years ago this was a busy service. But its unreliability since the May 2018 timetable has effectively killed it and only ~10 people got on.

It is perhaps unsurprisingly that Northern think they are losing revenue hand over fist and there have been more RPIs on my route to and from work the last couple of months. I would suggest they're dire performance and inability to deliver a dependable service has turned hoards of passengers away. Morale among staff is low and it feels as though guards don't check tickets as frequently as they used to.

Priorities need re-assessing to recruit enough 'frontline' staff to deliver a reliable service first and foremost I think.

LowLevel · 23 Jan 2020

Mugby said:
I passed through Derby Station this evening just after 1700 and EMR's RPIs were having a peak time blitz. Both entrances, the station front and Pride Park had the gatelines operating with the usual staff in attendance plus RPIs to deal with any irregularities.

Also, tickets of intending passengers were being checked on the footbridge at the top of the steps leading to platforms 5 and 6, but apparently not those of arriving passengers. Thus, passengers travelling would be having their tickets checked twice, first at the gateline and again at steps leading to their respective platforms.

I thought this was overkill, really, was it necessary to check tickets twice? Is this sort of arrangement also practised at other locations?

It's primarily to deal with college kids entering with their bridge passes and then attempting to board trains. Happens after every term break.

PHILIPE · 23 Jan 2020

45107 said:
Checking entitlement to be on the premises is harassment ?

That's what the punters who are demanded to show heir tickets say when they are asked before they have even reached a TVM

jamesnotts86 · 23 Jan 2020

I’ve seen this before at Derby (albeit under EMT days). RPO’s at the Pride Park side of the station, at the barriers but with them open and physically checking every ticket causing long queues across the bridge. The queue was so long that I missed my connecting bus to work, so (politely) challenged/asked why this was being done and simply got a mouthful of abuse and various words beginning with ‘f’ and ‘o’.

I get the need to check tickets, I’ve seen so many people get away with evading and it drives me up the wall when paying over £300 a month for a season ticket, but would it not be better just having them manning the gates and just dealing with people without a ticket, wrong tickets or attempting to tailgate rather than delaying actual fare paying passengers?

bunnahabhain · 23 Jan 2020

js1000 said:
I think there are far too many RPIs (often working on poor fixed term conditions I hasten to add) personally when you consider how many franchises are having serious staffing problems with lack of drivers which is not acceptable.

Revenue Protection Officers working for EMR have pretty good T&Cs. Their role is in no way related to that of a driver and I'm quite sure many RPOs are happy in their role and have no desire to drive trains.

js1000 said:
The other morning I boarded a 6 coach service with new trains into Manchester. A couple of years ago this was a busy service. But its unreliability since the May 2018 timetable has effectively killed it and only ~10 people got on.

It is perhaps unsurprisingly that Northern think they are losing revenue hand over fist and there have been more RPIs on my route to and from work the last couple of months. I would suggest they're dire performance and inability to deliver a dependable service has turned hoards of passengers away. Morale among staff is low and it feels as though guards don't check tickets as frequently as they used to.

Priorities need re-assessing to recruit enough 'frontline' staff to deliver a reliable service first and foremost I think.

There have been plenty of changes to the role of the Guard across many franchises, including in some cases changing the method of working and changing the priorities the work due to the Persons of Reduced Mobility (PRM) legislation. Revenue is always the lowest priority of any train Guard.

Safety.
Service.
Revenue.

bunnahabhain · 23 Jan 2020

jamesnotts86 said:
would it not be better just having them manning the gates and just dealing with people without a ticket, wrong tickets or attempting to tailgate rather than delaying actual fare paying passengers?

Almost all of the college students possess a gateline pass to enable them to cross the station to gain access between Pride Park and the city side of the station. Some have been known attempt to travel to and from stations local to Derby, so the revenue block is an attempt to catch and alleviate such activities.

Robertj21a · 23 Jan 2020

js1000 said:
I think there are far too many RPIs (often working on poor fixed term conditions I hasten to add) personally when you consider how many franchises are having serious staffing problems with lack of drivers which is not acceptable.

The other morning I boarded a 6 coach service with new trains into Manchester. A couple of years ago this was a busy service. But its unreliability since the May 2018 timetable has effectively killed it and only ~10 people got on.

It is perhaps unsurprisingly that Northern think they are losing revenue hand over fist and there have been more RPIs on my route to and from work the last couple of months. I would suggest they're dire performance and inability to deliver a dependable service has turned hoards of passengers away. Morale among staff is low and it feels as though guards don't check tickets as frequently as they used to.

Priorities need re-assessing to recruit enough 'frontline' staff to deliver a reliable service first and foremost I think.

Struggling to see much of a real connection between RPIs doing their job - and a lack of drivers.

ASharpe · 23 Jan 2020

Mugby said:
I thought this was overkill, really, was it necessary to check tickets twice? Is this sort of arrangement also practised at other locations?

Every so often RPIs try to cover parts of Shipley station with varying degrees of success. If they do it would be easy to be checked by several of them - but only slightly more difficult to avoid them entirely.

sheff1 · 23 Jan 2020

PHILIPE said:
That's what the punters who are demanded to show heir tickets say when they are asked before they have even reached a TVM

They are still doing that one then. Used to be a favourite tactic at Meadowhall.

Mugby · 23 Jan 2020

bunnahabhain said:
Almost all of the college students possess a gateline pass to enable them to cross the station to gain access between Pride Park and the city side of the station. Some have been known attempt to travel to and from stations local to Derby, so the revenue block is an attempt to catch and alleviate such activities.

I really can't understand why the concession of bridge passes is given to students at Derby College. There's another, perfectly adequate access from the city to the college opposite the Alexandra Pub at the end of Siddals Road.

Is the concession given gratuitously or is there some sort of requirement to provide a right of way?

Llanigraham · 23 Jan 2020

PHILIPE said:
Everyday event on TFW harrassing people at stations.

So ticket checks by RPI's is harrassment? Funny but I thought that was their job?

And I've never been checked at any TFW station, so perhaps you exagerate a little?

sheff1 · 23 Jan 2020

Mugby said:
I really can't understand why the concession of bridge passes is given to students at Derby College. There's another, perfectly adequate access from the city to the college opposite the Alexandra Pub at the end of Siddals Road.

Is the concession given gratuitously or is there some sort of requirement to provide a right of way?

Full details here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/116124/response/286152/attach/3/R Agreement.pdf
Very brief summary - Derby City Council contributed funds towards the extension of the station footbridge to the Pride Park side and, in return, 'the railway' committed to allowing certain categories of person free passage over the bridge to/from the Pride Park area.

Similar arrangements were proposed in Sheffield but nothing came of them and the footbridge remains open to all.

Mugby · 23 Jan 2020

sheff1 said:
Full details here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/116124/response/286152/attach/3/R Agreement.pdf
Very brief summary - Derby City Council contributed funds towards the extension of the station footbridge to the Pride Park side and, in return, 'the railway' committed to allowing certain categories of person free passage over the bridge to/from the Pride Park area.

Similar arrangements were proposed in Sheffield but nothing came of them and the footbridge remains open to all.

Thanks for that. Interesting clause in that agreement which states:

'If there are reasonable grounds to suspect a pass is being abused, it may be withdrawn at any time'

This would appear to be one solution, the clause should be rigorously enforced!

LowLevel · 24 Jan 2020

Mugby said:
Thanks for that. Interesting clause in that agreement which states:

'If there are reasonable grounds to suspect a pass is being abused, it may be withdrawn at any time'

This would appear to be one solution, the clause should be rigorously enforced!

They and the college are told in no uncertain terms that they're committing a criminal offence by travelling having used their pass to get through the gates and I believe they're subject to potential disciplinary action by the college as well as prosecution by the railway.

I take them off them if misused and bung them into the revenue protection filing system which inevitably means it's gone for quite some time if not permanently.

Every year you get some new clever clogs who thinks they've come up with a new scam, every year a few weeks after term starts in September and January they send revenue protection out to bloody a few noses publically and funnily enough the abuse stops dead.

Belperpete · 24 Jan 2020

Mugby said:
I really can't understand why the concession of bridge passes is given to students at Derby College. There's another, perfectly adequate access from the city to the college opposite the Alexandra Pub at the end of Siddals Road.

Is the concession given gratuitously or is there some sort of requirement to provide a right of way?

That access can be impassable when the river is high. It also adds significantly to the walking time if coming from the south. I used to have a bridge pass because I frequently needed to get to and from Pride Park for work purposes. They gave them out quite freely when they first put in the gate line, and if you already had one it was easy to get it renewed, but latterly they have made it more difficult to get one. I believe college students have to apply within a week or two of the start of the academic year if they want one.

RPI · 24 Jan 2020

We do similar at Exeter Central on occasions when Exeter Chiefs are playing, check on the footbridge when an SWR service arrives from Waterloo as many from Cranbrook/Honiton/Axminster without tickets or with tickets just to Exeter Central will change trains for the Exmouth service (which calls at Digby where Sandy Park is).
This usually results in quite a few ticketless travellers being stopped. So it's not checking people twice

Belperpete · 24 Jan 2020

bunnahabhain said:
Almost all of the college students possess a gateline pass to enable them to cross the station to gain access between Pride Park and the city side of the station. Some have been known attempt to travel to and from stations local to Derby, so the revenue block is an attempt to catch and alleviate such activities.

Doesn't help that a lot of the local stations are open stations, without ticket office, such as Long Eaton and those on the Matlock line.

ag51ruk · 24 Jan 2020

Belperpete said:
Doesn't help that a lot of the local stations are open stations, without ticket office, such as Long Eaton and those on the Matlock line.

Long Eaton has a ticket office, and many of the stations on the Matlock line have ticket machines now

Antman · 24 Jan 2020

Robertj21a said:
Struggling to see much of a real connection between RPIs doing their job - and a lack of drivers.

Probably a bit like the police being criticised for not attending a burglary yet seemingly having plenty of staff resources for speed cameras.

Bantamzen · 24 Jan 2020

Greenboy said:
Probably a bit like the police being criticised for not attending a burglary yet seemingly having plenty of staff resources for speed cameras.

That's an odd analogy, and doesn't explain the connection between RPIs being deployed on ticket checks & there being a need for drivers, given that the two jobs are worlds apart in terms of pay and training.

Antman · 24 Jan 2020

Bantamzen said:
That's an odd analogy, and doesn't explain the connection between RPIs being deployed on ticket checks & there being a need for drivers, given that the two jobs are worlds apart in terms of pay and training.

Trains cancelled because of staff shortages but an abundance of staff checking tickets, I know they are two different jobs but....................

jtuk · 24 Jan 2020

Raul_Duke said:
Harassing........?

I'd consider it an inconvenience, but it's preferable to barriers. Correct answer is of course neither and do all checks on the train

Darandio · 24 Jan 2020

Greenboy said:
Trains cancelled because of staff shortages but an abundance of staff checking tickets, I know they are two different jobs but....................

So you explained it and answered yourself in the process.

PeterC · 24 Jan 2020

Greenboy said:
Trains cancelled because of staff shortages but an abundance of staff checking tickets, I know they are two different jobs but....................

Of course the public perception is that there is no essential difference between driving a train and driving a car.

NB I said "public perception", before somebody flames me I do know better.

RPI blitz at Derby this evening.

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