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Delayed due to "passengers causing a disturbance"?
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RailUK Forums
221129
Established Member
Fare evader who then pulled a sickie to get an ambulance at Taunton
Had that as a reason announced at Carlisle last Saturday , was to my advantage as it saved me an hour wait to the next service.
Tom Quinne
On Moderation
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I doubt it, Ambo will have turned out the crew would have assessed the person found zero untoward, but their duty bound to take said wasted to hospital just in case.
Meanwhile, people in real need wait for said ambo or have to wait longer upon overstretched A&E.
47271
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It reminds me of an odd incident that I got caught up in at Brockenhurst a few years ago, I was travelling from Bournemouth to Waterloo.
We sat in the station for a few minutes and then were informed that, due to passenger being taken ill, we should get off and wait for another service.
We stood around on the platform for ten minutes or so. Paramedics arrived and disappeared on board with the guard and some other staff. Very soon afterwards the crazed figure of a young man stumbled out of the train, and half ran and half crawled down the platform and onto the footbridge, with paramedics and railway staff in close pursuit. We never saw any of them again.
I was standing on the platform by the driver at the front of the train. 'We've sent last of 'im, you might as well get back on' he said. We got on, the doors shut, and off we went.
We sat in the station for a few minutes and then were informed that, due to passenger being taken ill, we should get off and wait for another service.
We stood around on the platform for ten minutes or so. Paramedics arrived and disappeared on board with the guard and some other staff. Very soon afterwards the crazed figure of a young man stumbled out of the train, and half ran and half crawled down the platform and onto the footbridge, with paramedics and railway staff in close pursuit. We never saw any of them again.
I was standing on the platform by the driver at the front of the train. 'We've sent last of 'im, you might as well get back on' he said. We got on, the doors shut, and off we went.
Jona26
Member
Er, no!
A 999 call to the ambulance service will be triaged via the appropriate pathway by the emergency call handler (with additional guidance from control centre medics if needed) and an ambulance dispatched if necessary.
Possible outcomes from the call could be no ambulance required, see GP within xx hours or attend walk in centre.
If an abulance is sent and the patient can be treated at the scene or no treatment is deemed necessary there is no obligation for them to be conveyed to hospital.
Also arrival at A&E by ambulance gets you seen no quicker than by walking in to reception. You will be seen in order of medical need.
twpsaesneg
Member
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Unfortunately most of the scroats know all of the keywords necessary to say to get a full Ambo turnout, or to pretend to have fallen unconscious.
When I was a police officer ambulance were frequent visitors to custody conveying "ill" prisoners to hospital whose chest pains and shortness of breath / "collapse" to the custody suite floor had miraculously begun just after arrival.
Amazingly after arrival at hospital they would perk up nicely, and we'd all have to wait 3 hours to get the all clear from a busy A&E doctor...
reddragon
Established Member
London Underground policy is if some one is ill, they move them off the train to the platform immediately so trains are not delayed.
You cannot have trains stuck in tunnels. It help that stations are staffed.
Why can't NR trains have the same policy? I have been on a train where the 'sick' person was just moved off the train to be treated.
You cannot have trains stuck in tunnels. It help that stations are staffed.
Why can't NR trains have the same policy? I have been on a train where the 'sick' person was just moved off the train to be treated.
That is the policy on the railway too. Unless someone has a spinal injury or something that is rather unlikely to occur on a train, or is suffering a fit, they're moved. But sometimes it can be rather difficult to move someone, and staff will be told off by wannabe medical experts onboard.
Chris M
Member
London Underground move the patient off the train unless it is not safe to do so. About 10 years or so ago now I was on an eastbound Central line train at Bethnal Green in the evening peak. After we came to a stop at the station the driver told us an alarm had been pulled towards the back of the train and they were going to investigate. A good few minutes later they informed us that the passenger had a serious injury and so would not be moved before paramedics arrived.
Nevertheless, the policy is to remove people from the train and get them help on the platform.
Whose policy? The paramedics at one incident made it quite clear that the casualty was not going anywhere until he was stabilised. In fact at one point once the casualty was stabilised (after over an hour with paramedics working on him, having 'lost him' and then brought him back once) they were considering having to dismantle part of the interior of the train to be able to get the stretcher around a tight vestibule and off the train. This was at the height of rush hour at a non-terminal station in central Manchester. The other one was a cleaner on (stationary) empty coaching stock, I was told that under no circumstances was he to be moved from the train. I was eventually instructed to uncouple the leading unit of two units and proceed with that unit leaving the rear unit with the casualty on it, by this time attended to by paramedics.
I rather think your example is one where someone is kept on the train. Especially if there's no stretcher or wheelchair to aid them, or the stock itself prevents movement (if you're suggesting dismantling part of the train interior, it's obvious you aren't going to drag someone off and roll them onto the platform).
Most instances, I'd suspect for TfL in particular, are someone who faints because they didn't have breakfast or enough water. A bite to eat, or drink, and they're usually back up and running in little time at all. There's no risk of 'losing' such people.
Most instances, I'd suspect for TfL in particular, are someone who faints because they didn't have breakfast or enough water. A bite to eat, or drink, and they're usually back up and running in little time at all. There's no risk of 'losing' such people.
theironroad
Established Member
Generally these policies are written by the control centres in a black and white format that fails to take into account what's happening in reality.
Yes, having trains backing up behind a train waiting for an ambulance isn't great and yes, at many stations especially with adequate staff and if the person is capable and willing to leave the train and wait at the station for medical help it will cause less disruption to the train service.
In real life, staff shouldn't and can't be turfing off people when they don't feel capable or even of they don't want to. Staff can't just pick people up and shove them off the train. On board staff are rarely medically trained and have to act on guidance from ambulance service in consultation with the ill passenger. If that means the person can't be moved and the train has to wait then that's the reality despite 'policy'.
I would imagine the fear of potential litigation if something goes wrong in moving the ill person off the train onto the platform may have a bearing on the actions of some members of staff.
Chris M
Member
What the policy actually says is probably words to the effect of "move the person off the train if possible unless there is a medical reason why they should not be moved."
Or, from recent experience: "You need to come to hospital urgently, but we literally have no ambulances we can send to you. Is there anyone nearby who can drive you immediately?" Nearest hospital is about half an hour away, btw.
reddragon
Established Member
There was an incident one summer rush hour on the Stratford - Liverpool Street Central Line where the result was nearly 100's of casualties in held trains. A near miss!
I am sure dragging of one person off versus a major incident focuses minds on litigation!
Trouble is, in the absence of a doctor, paramedic etc. who happens to be travelling on that train, there will nobody on board who is qualified to make that decision.
It’s a monumentally stupid policy, putting staff into the firing line just to save a few delay minutes.
Correct!
It’s a very sensible policy. The vast majority of ill people on a train must be movable - not going to be many back injuries even on CAF stock!
So, imagine you’re a DOO driver, your passcom goes off, you walk back to find someone looking very ill indeed.
Are you going to disregard the advice a 999 operator would give you, and attempt to move them before the paramedics arrive?!
Chris M
Member
No, if the 999 operator has said don't move them then that's a medical reason not to move them.
I seriously doubt that anywhere close to a majority of instances of ill passengers require anyone to call 999 though, and in most cases that do there isn't going to be advice given not to move them.
As always this depends on the severity of the incident. If someone can be helped onto a platform with a member of staff or even at times, a competent and willing passenger that's great. I think some of the posters as above hit the nail on the head when making it clear this is where appropriate.
This isn't the only issue of passenger disturbance though; malicious passenger alarms / egresses being pulled can be annoyingly common across SE London and the culprit runs off but driver / guard / OBS has to go and reset it. Also seen trains held for 20+ minutes due to BTP being called in response to a reported mugging onboard.
This isn't the only issue of passenger disturbance though; malicious passenger alarms / egresses being pulled can be annoyingly common across SE London and the culprit runs off but driver / guard / OBS has to go and reset it. Also seen trains held for 20+ minutes due to BTP being called in response to a reported mugging onboard.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
That presumes that 999 has been called and advise has been given. That may well not have happened.
It also depends on exactly what is being reported by the "ill" person. If the "patient" reports that they are capable of exiting the train, even with some help then what is the problem? Let them get off and allow any possible station staff deal with them, especially considering that at most stations there will be a First Aider/Designated Person present.
If the casualty is able to walk off the train of their own volition that’s all well and good. If they’re out cold railway staff are not qualified to determine whether they’ve had a heart attack, suffered a stroke, or simply fainted.
999 operators also aren’t in a position to determine what is wrong with a casualty. In my experience they will never advise moving them until they’ve been attended to by medically trained professionals.
Chris M
Member
If someone is out cold, then indeed it is unlikely that that advice will be given they should be moved. However, what proportion of passenger injuries result in someone being out cold? I'd put money on it being significantly less than 50%.
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