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Transdev Blazefield

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SCH117X

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Certainly parts of Harrogate are poorly served, more so given the post deregulation Hoppas which seemed to go down any road a Hoppa could fit down. Many services were not commercially viable and NYCC axed the funding of them.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Certainly parts of Harrogate are poorly served, more so given the post deregulation Hoppas which seemed to go down any road a Hoppa could fit down. Many services were not commercially viable and NYCC axed the funding of them.

So is Swimbar saying that certain areas aren’t served because NYCC pulled the tenders? Are they not sustainable? Or, if they are and Transdev aren’t operating them, then surely that’s an opportunity for someone else?

Or am I missing something?
 

johntea

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The claim of a service every 7 minutes on the 1st route (during peak times) wears a bit thin stood at Harrogate Bus Station 25 minutes later!

Obviously nothing they can do about the traffic but what I do find odd is once the services do arrive into the bus station there are often driver changes who then can spend up to a further 5 minutes sat at the wheel filling in various change over paperwork before allowing anyone to board causing further delays! Surely Transdev could make this a more efficient/automated process...
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The claim of a service every 7 minutes on the 1st route (during peak times) wears a bit thin stood at Harrogate Bus Station 25 minutes later!

Obviously nothing they can do about the traffic but what I do find odd is once the services do arrive into the bus station there are often driver changes who then can spend up to a further 5 minutes sat at the wheel filling in various change over paperwork before allowing anyone to board causing further delays! Surely Transdev could make this a more efficient/automated process...

Sadly it seems to be the way these days. Not the same as simply clipping an Almex A into its stand!
 

Swimbar

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So is Swimbar saying that certain areas aren’t served because NYCC pulled the tenders? Are they not sustainable? Or, if they are and Transdev aren’t operating them, then surely that’s an opportunity for someone else?

Or am I missing something?

Transdev and Connexions buses operate between Harrogate and Knaresborough every few minutes.
It not unusual for two Transdev buses and a Connexions bus to follow one another up Knaresborough Road, Harrogate accepting that Starbeck Crossing doesn't help.
Nobody appears willing to deviate from Knaresborough Road into the estates to serve the public, who were served, as SCH117X says by the Harrogate Hoppas for some years.
Transdev's vinyl's on the front of their buses that they were proud to have served the people of Harrogate for 106 years wears a bit thin as clearly profit has fully taken over.
Transdev have nothing based in Harrogate except full size buses so clearly have no intention of doing anything other than what they do now.
 

Andyh82

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Still don’t get the point you are making?

To boast about serving the town for a long time, you have to serve every single part of the town?
 

SCH117X

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Using the current Harrogate map
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/images.transdevplc.co.uk/2019-10/harrogate network map 291x210 mar19 web.pdf
their use to be a service ENE from the town centre past the old WYRCC depot (marked the map as a Health Centre) to the housing area next to Harrogate High School - that was a Mon-Sat daytime only service funded by NYCC (last numbered 111) and which passed to Connexions at the final round of tendering - the service ceased when NYCC pulled the plug.

The housing area to the north of Knaresborough Road (to the east of the High Harrogate marking on the map) for many years had a service which got pulled because those roads are so parked up it difficult to get a bus through. That area is subject of a number of major housing developments but NYCC are not asking for a bus service to be put on in contrast to new developments at Knaresborough where they have tenders for new services (the new Transdev 1D and to come what I presume will be a new service to the east as extending the 1B will make its loop unattractive to existing customers, again that has been won by Transdev). NYCC consider the frequency of services along Knaresborough Road mitigates the distance of them from the housing.

The Wedderburn area to the south of Knaresborough Road was again served by a former NYCC tendered service (latterly 104) which Connexions did run for a period after NYCC pulled the plug.

The Crossways area is served by the limited NYCC funded service to Knaresborough via Calcutt, currently service 8. Before Labours Rural Bus Grant that area had its own half hourly local service 9 in addition to a hourly Calcutt-Knaresborough-Boroughbridge or Ripon service. Under the RBG the Calcutt etc service was increased to half hourly and the 9 withdrawn. With the loss of RBG the Calcutt service has been reduced and reduced due to NYCC funding cuts.

North of Crossways the area to the east of the Starbeck Pool marking on the map use to have a service (last numbered 5).

The housing area north of St John Fisher School and east of St Aidens School was also served by the old service 9.

Hornbeam Park (around the Harrrogate College markings on the map) for a while had a highly frequent service (numbered 105) which was cut back and taken off once train services were increased.
The Oatlands area to the east of Leeds Road had a service while Rossett Green and then south to Pannal had a service - these were merged into one service and latterly were diverted to serve Hornbeam Park. The Rossett Green-Pannal section continued
with Connexions being the last tendered operator after which NYCC operated the service themselves for a while. Now there are demand responsive services provided by NYCC. Meanwhile NYCC diverted the Calcutt etc service to include an westerly dead end leg serving Hornbeam Park so decreasing its attractiveness for existing customers and which was eventually dropped.

Rossett Green was also served by a southerly loop extension of service 6 funded initially by the now closed Police Training College and dropped due to time keeping issues IIRC.

Service 6 in the past has had variations that ran along the southern side of Valley Gardens.

The Duchy and Oakdale were for a long period served by a NYCC tendered service to the Army College. That got incorporated into a diversion of the X59 to Skipton much to annoyance of local passengers as the Dart on the X59 was typically full. When NYCC ceased funding the X59 Transdev tried and failed to run it commercially but in doing so diverted it away from the Duchy and Oakdale. Connexions provided a commercial service to the Duchy only which still runs albeit only Mon-Fri daytime. It was noticeable that Connexions made no attempt to run the X59. There is now a peak service to the Army College via the A59 through a diverted 24 to and from Pateley Bridge.

Oakdale is to gain a service through the Jennyfield estate as a result of a new housing development incorporating a bus gate. Indications from Transdev previously is that this will be additional to the 3 with the two services running every 20 minutes to give a 10 minute frequency to parts of Jennyfield , although other parts presumably will see a frequency drop from every 15 minutes.

The one service that seems to me to vastly needed is a diversion of some Route 1s (or Connexions X1s) south from the Golf Club to Crossways and then the 8 or even parts of the old 9 route into Harrogate; so improving services to part of the town that feels cut off despite the 8.
 

SCH117X

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Transdev have nothing based in Harrogate except full size buses so clearly have no intention of doing anything other than what they do now.
There are the two electric solos which are supposed to be used on the Pateley Bridge service but rarely seem to be.
 

Swimbar

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Using the current Harrogate map
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/images.transdevplc.co.uk/2019-10/harrogate network map 291x210 mar19 web.pdf
their use to be a service ENE from the town centre past the old WYRCC depot (marked the map as a Health Centre) to the housing area next to Harrogate High School - that was a Mon-Sat daytime only service funded by NYCC (last numbered 111) and which passed to Connexions at the final round of tendering - the service ceased when NYCC pulled the plug.

The housing area to the north of Knaresborough Road (to the east of the High Harrogate marking on the map) for many years had a service which got pulled because those roads are so parked up it difficult to get a bus through. That area is subject of a number of major housing developments but NYCC are not asking for a bus service to be put on in contrast to new developments at Knaresborough where they have tenders for new services (the new Transdev 1D and to come what I presume will be a new service to the east as extending the 1B will make its loop unattractive to existing customers, again that has been won by Transdev). NYCC consider the frequency of services along Knaresborough Road mitigates the distance of them from the housing.

The Wedderburn area to the south of Knaresborough Road was again served by a former NYCC tendered service (latterly 104) which Connexions did run for a period after NYCC pulled the plug.

The Crossways area is served by the limited NYCC funded service to Knaresborough via Calcutt, currently service 8. Before Labours Rural Bus Grant that area had its own half hourly local service 9 in addition to a hourly Calcutt-Knaresborough-Boroughbridge or Ripon service. Under the RBG the Calcutt etc service was increased to half hourly and the 9 withdrawn. With the loss of RBG the Calcutt service has been reduced and reduced due to NYCC funding cuts.

North of Crossways the area to the east of the Starbeck Pool marking on the map use to have a service (last numbered 5).

The housing area north of St John Fisher School and east of St Aidens School was also served by the old service 9.

Hornbeam Park (around the Harrrogate College markings on the map) for a while had a highly frequent service (numbered 105) which was cut back and taken off once train services were increased.
The Oatlands area to the east of Leeds Road had a service while Rossett Green and then south to Pannal had a service - these were merged into one service and latterly were diverted to serve Hornbeam Park. The Rossett Green-Pannal section continued
with Connexions being the last tendered operator after which NYCC operated the service themselves for a while. Now there are demand responsive services provided by NYCC. Meanwhile NYCC diverted the Calcutt etc service to include an westerly dead end leg serving Hornbeam Park so decreasing its attractiveness for existing customers and which was eventually dropped.

Rossett Green was also served by a southerly loop extension of service 6 funded initially by the now closed Police Training College and dropped due to time keeping issues IIRC.

Service 6 in the past has had variations that ran along the southern side of Valley Gardens.

The Duchy and Oakdale were for a long period served by a NYCC tendered service to the Army College. That got incorporated into a diversion of the X59 to Skipton much to annoyance of local passengers as the Dart on the X59 was typically full. When NYCC ceased funding the X59 Transdev tried and failed to run it commercially but in doing so diverted it away from the Duchy and Oakdale. Connexions provided a commercial service to the Duchy only which still runs albeit only Mon-Fri daytime. It was noticeable that Connexions made no attempt to run the X59. There is now a peak service to the Army College via the A59 through a diverted 24 to and from Pateley Bridge.

Oakdale is to gain a service through the Jennyfield estate as a result of a new housing development incorporating a bus gate. Indications from Transdev previously is that this will be additional to the 3 with the two services running every 20 minutes to give a 10 minute frequency to parts of Jennyfield , although other parts presumably will see a frequency drop from every 15 minutes.

The one service that seems to me to vastly needed is a diversion of some Route 1s (or Connexions X1s) south from the Golf Club to Crossways and then the 8 or even parts of the old 9 route into Harrogate; so improving services to part of the town that feels cut off despite the 8.

Excellent post describing Harrogate Bus Services as they were until the savage cuts by NYCC as a result of Government cuts to their grant. Huge amount of services lost throughout North Yorkshire.
Only suggestion I could add is that the odd 1 or X1 could turn right at Forest Lane Head down Bogs Lane to serve the Kingsley Area where a new estate is being built but must admit i am not sure of the weight limit on Bogs Lane bridge
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Excellent post describing Harrogate Bus Services as they were until the savage cuts by NYCC as a result of Government cuts to their grant. Huge amount of services lost throughout North Yorkshire.

Ain’t that the truth. Even those that survive are often run with 16 seat welfare minibuses in between schools or community minibuses.
 

SCH117X

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Only suggestion I could add is that the odd 1 or X1 could turn right at Forest Lane Head down Bogs Lane to serve the Kingsley Area where a new estate is being built but must admit i am not sure of the weight limit on Bogs Lane bridge
That reminds me the last incarnation of the 9 IIRC was that it was altered into a giant loop, numbered 8 in the opposite direction, continuing upto Forest Lane Head, Starbeck Level Crossing and the parked congested estate to the north side of the Knaresborough Road. A variation of that along the route you suggest could work with the Solos, setting aside any weight restriction there is a nasty bend that a full size bus could have problems with.
 

SCH117X

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Tweeted announcement today of Harrogate Route 1 changes from 23 Feb, the additional 1D bus is withdrawn and a 1C extended to the 1D terminus, evening 1A buses to St James Retail Park, and Sunday evening improvements to the 1A and 1C. So that's back to just 12 buses an hour each way on Knaresborough Road.
 

RustySpoons

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Ain’t that the truth. Even those that survive are often run with 16 seat welfare minibuses in between schools or community minibuses.

Similar situation in East Lancs too. Harrogate is quite lucky in that they do actually have some form of evening town bus network. Blackburn and Burnley have pretty much nothing. Which is mildly infuriating when LCC subsidise non sensical daytime services that run all the way round the houses, mostly empty and inconvenient to most more frequently than necessary.
 

Fisherman80

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I couldn't believe it when the 67 from Bradford to Keighley was cut to an hourly service. If only Transdev put as much effort into marketing that service,like they do with other branded routes,maybe the service would be still half hourly. Instead they run the oldest buses in the fleet with no marketing whatsoever.
 

158756

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Similar situation in East Lancs too. Harrogate is quite lucky in that they do actually have some form of evening town bus network. Blackburn and Burnley have pretty much nothing. Which is mildly infuriating when LCC subsidise non sensical daytime services that run all the way round the houses, mostly empty and inconvenient to most more frequently than necessary.

Which daytime services were you thinking of with that description? I would think of the 95 Burnley - Colne, which as far as I can tell has such a crazy route to save money - I wouldn't suggest any of the places it serves should be left without a bus service altogether.
 

RustySpoons

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Which daytime services were you thinking of with that description? I would think of the 95 Burnley - Colne, which as far as I can tell has such a crazy route to save money - I wouldn't suggest any of the places it serves should be left without a bus service altogether.

I agree. The 95 is the main one that springs to mind. There's also the 95a (i think) that follows vaguely the same route, but terminates on a side street somewhere off Eastern Avenue only a mile or so away from the town centre. Why not just run into Burnley and create a new useful link into town.

It really doesn't help at all that those services are operated by a company that runs anonymous looking scruffy buses, with absolutely zero marketing and seems there's no desire to even make an effort with it.

The Healey Wood circular services aren't much better. I believe there's one that runs via Berry Street, and another that runs via Burnley Wood, weirdly. Then it runs around the outskirts of town and drops back in at the top of Rosehill and Healey Wood. What should be a quick journey turns into a bit of a trek.

These services are run by Pilkington's, and to be fair they operate an absolutely spotless fleet.

Back to Burnley Wood though, I've never understood why Burnley & Pendle don't reroute their Bacup service back through there. Considering it's a LCC subsidised service anywhere surely it'd be more cost efficient to run that service through BW? Irwell Line serves much of the existing route anyway.
 

SCH117X

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Back to Burnley Wood though, I've never understood why Burnley & Pendle don't reroute their Bacup service back through there. Considering it's a LCC subsidised service anywhere surely it'd be more cost efficient to run that service through BW? Irwell Line serves much of the existing route anyway.
Presumably the route is set by LCC.
 

158756

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I agree. The 95 is the main one that springs to mind. There's also the 95a (i think) that follows vaguely the same route, but terminates on a side street somewhere off Eastern Avenue only a mile or so away from the town centre. Why not just run into Burnley and create a new useful link into town.

It really doesn't help at all that those services are operated by a company that runs anonymous looking scruffy buses, with absolutely zero marketing and seems there's no desire to even make an effort with it.

The Healey Wood circular services aren't much better. I believe there's one that runs via Berry Street, and another that runs via Burnley Wood, weirdly. Then it runs around the outskirts of town and drops back in at the top of Rosehill and Healey Wood. What should be a quick journey turns into a bit of a trek.

These services are run by Pilkington's, and to be fair they operate an absolutely spotless fleet.

Back to Burnley Wood though, I've never understood why Burnley & Pendle don't reroute their Bacup service back through there. Considering it's a LCC subsidised service anywhere surely it'd be more cost efficient to run that service through BW? Irwell Line serves much of the existing route anyway.

I assume the 95a terminates where it does because there isn't the money for the extra bus needed to run it through to Burnley. Likewise the company operating it will have been the lowest bidder, and there's no way the council can afford anything other than the lowest bidder.

On the Bacup route - was it subsidised when Rosso ran it? If not they'll presumably have to wait for the contract with Pilkington's Burnley Wood service to finish before rationalising the service.
 

RustySpoons

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I assume the 95a terminates where it does because there isn't the money for the extra bus needed to run it through to Burnley. Likewise the company operating it will have been the lowest bidder, and there's no way the council can afford anything other than the lowest bidder.

You're probably right. But as the 95a runs the same route as some of the 95 I don't think it'd be too difficult to amend it slightly so an extra bus wouldn't be required.

The operator that puts in the lowest bid for a route is a vicious circle. A scruffy bus won't attract new passengers, yet the council don't seem to understand why.

On the Bacup route - was it subsidised when Rosso ran it? If not they'll presumably have to wait for the contract with Pilkington's Burnley Wood service to finish before rationalising the service.

I'll be honest I'm not 100% on the details. I know when B&P ran it it ran through B-Wood, then Rosso took over and I think they just ran directly down Tod Rd.
 

RustySpoons

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We know a new Witch Way fleet is incoming at some point this year, plus a fleet of coaches more than likely heading to York for CityZap, but are there any other fleets that are due an upgrade?

Even though the WW fleet are leased, it'd be a foolish move to send them all back to the lessor considering the 152 is running with 15 year old buses, so it'd make sense to cascade some onto that route.

Then there's the RedExpress, which is suddenly doing really well because it was full on the first rush hour fast service this morning (which according to passengers it was always busy at rush hour before the changes anyway). Those B7s are getting pretty tired now. They still look good (when they're clean on a bright sunny day they still look freshly painted), but then they set off and spew out plumes of black smoke, and reliability isn't too great either from all accounts. AH has said there aren't any plans to replace them, though I'm not sure if that was just short term to see how the route performs after the changes or long term. Could some ex-Witches make their way onto the X41?

With Leeds' incoming clean air zone (CAZ), could some of the workings on the 60 need upgraded vehicles too? I believe some rush hour journeys are run with B7TLs to help with capacity, which I assume won't be clean enough for the CAZ.

Burnley local services, as unsuited as they are I think the B10s will have at least another year left on local services, not sure about the Tridents or the MPDs. Every few months for the past couple of years there's been murmurings of the Tridents being withdrawn. But considering the two ex-York MANs are being repainted I think they'll have at least a year or two as well. I can see a new fleet being ordered at some point, but not any time soon. Possibly to coincide with the next round of LCC tenders, so the fleet would be more suited to interwork some tendered work?

TL : DR - They'd be daft to send the Witch Way B9s back to the lessors, Burnley local services probably fine for now, IMO.

Any other thoughts?
 

Andyh82

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3 more Gemini 3's to complete the new Coastliner fleet would be good. The 3 B9TLs could then cascade onto the peak hour 60s, but in reality they are more likely to cascade onto Rosso's TfGM School contracts.
 

158756

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We know a new Witch Way fleet is incoming at some point this year, plus a fleet of coaches more than likely heading to York for CityZap, but are there any other fleets that are due an upgrade?

Even though the WW fleet are leased, it'd be a foolish move to send them all back to the lessor considering the 152 is running with 15 year old buses, so it'd make sense to cascade some onto that route.

Then there's the RedExpress, which is suddenly doing really well because it was full on the first rush hour fast service this morning (which according to passengers it was always busy at rush hour before the changes anyway). Those B7s are getting pretty tired now. They still look good (when they're clean on a bright sunny day they still look freshly painted), but then they set off and spew out plumes of black smoke, and reliability isn't too great either from all accounts. AH has said there aren't any plans to replace them, though I'm not sure if that was just short term to see how the route performs after the changes or long term. Could some ex-Witches make their way onto the X41?

With Leeds' incoming clean air zone (CAZ), could some of the workings on the 60 need upgraded vehicles too? I believe some rush hour journeys are run with B7TLs to help with capacity, which I assume won't be clean enough for the CAZ.

Burnley local services, as unsuited as they are I think the B10s will have at least another year left on local services, not sure about the Tridents or the MPDs. Every few months for the past couple of years there's been murmurings of the Tridents being withdrawn. But considering the two ex-York MANs are being repainted I think they'll have at least a year or two as well. I can see a new fleet being ordered at some point, but not any time soon. Possibly to coincide with the next round of LCC tenders, so the fleet would be more suited to interwork some tendered work?

TL : DR - They'd be daft to send the Witch Way B9s back to the lessors, Burnley local services probably fine for now, IMO.

Any other thoughts?

Aren't the 152, X41 and City Zap routes all run with buses bought for the Witch Way and Harrogate 36 (when Blazefield actually bought buses)? Since they started leasing buses it seems they do get returned at the end of the lease even though there's plenty worse in the fleet - what that means routes which haven't previously justified new builds we'll find out in the next few years. The Burnley local fleet as an example will only get replaced if there are any Burnley local services left - the vehicle requirement must have halved at least in the last decade.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Aren't the 152, X41 and City Zap routes all run with buses bought for the Witch Way and Harrogate 36 (when Blazefield actually bought buses)? Since they started leasing buses it seems they do get returned at the end of the lease even though there's plenty worse in the fleet - what that means routes which haven't previously justified new builds we'll find out in the next few years. The Burnley local fleet as an example will only get replaced if there are any Burnley local services left - the vehicle requirement must have halved at least in the last decade.
I thought that Blazefield, before Transdev, leases certain of the fleet. Hence why Coastliner Olympians like the last ones W-CWX passed via Ensign to First?

However, they take a view when the lease is due to end if they wish to buy or return. The Mainline Eclipses were retained whilst Starship Versas weren’t.

Or am I way off beam?
 

SCH117X

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In terms of the Harrogate fleet they seemed to buy all vehicles until Blazefield were looking at selling and hence the 2006 Gemini for the 36 was leased, and consequently got returned, and all subsequent arrivals seem to have been leased. Maybe Coastliner was treated separately due to the demands of the route.
 

Stan Drews

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I thought that Blazefield, before Transdev, leases certain of the fleet. Hence why Coastliner Olympians like the last ones W-CWX passed via Ensign to First?

However, they take a view when the lease is due to end if they wish to buy or return. The Mainline Eclipses were retained whilst Starship Versas weren’t.

Or am I way off beam?
Nope, you’re spot on TGW. They have retained many leased buses, at the end of their initial lease agreements. The Mainline Eclipses were good reliable workhorses, so it made financial sense to refurbish them and use them on routes where brand new buses could not be justified. I’d imagine when the Witch Way Gemini’s are replaced they will carry out a similar exercise regarding their potential use on other services, perhaps with some refurbishment too?
 

cnjb8

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I've always found Transdev leasing buses for Blazefield weird. If they'd kept some of these buses, there wouldn't be Y Renowns and Presidents trotting about!
Do all other Transdev companies lease?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I've always found Transdev leasing buses for Blazefield weird. If they'd kept some of these buses, there wouldn't be Y Renowns and Presidents trotting about!
Do all other Transdev companies lease?

I was told that it reflects the business model elsewhere in the world, rather like London. You will have a franchised route or network for a number of years so it makes sense to lease vehicles.

The U.K. situation is a bit of an oddity but before Transdev, Blazefield did lease selected vehicles AFAIK. And, of course, there are a number of vehicles that have been retained after their lease has concluded.
 

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