6Z54 Derails Leyton Midland Road 23/01

trainmania100 · 24 Jan 2020

theking said:
2 weeks is the early estimate.

Strange, usually a resleeping reballasting can be done in couple of days or less in engineering possessions, gues stheyve got to get the ballast, rails and staff etc which could take a while

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furnessvale · 24 Jan 2020

trainmania100 said:
Strange, usually a resleeping reballasting can be done in couple of days or less in engineering possessions, gues stheyve got to get the ballast, rails and staff etc which could take a while

Yes. Years ago the Long Meg anhydrite train used to derail all too frequently damaging miles of track. The longest length it did was 7 miles. We used to divert prefab destined for, or coming off WCML weekend possessions to do the work. The work was done in days not weeks.

Even so, in one year of weekend possessions on the WCML, we still managed to reballast, relay and install over 100 single miles of track. Those were the days. No high output trains, but no H & SE either.

Islineclear3_1 · 24 Jan 2020

matt_world2004 said:
What speed would the freight have been going to drag for four miles. I though maximum speed on the Goblin was 60.

I dont know actual speeds but curves are tight around Leyton Midland Road and Wanstead Park and from personal sightings, I guess much lower than 60

baz962 · 24 Jan 2020

Islineclear3_1 said:
I dont know actual speeds but curves are tight around Leyton Midland Road and Wanstead Park and from personal sightings, I guess much lower than 60

It's 45 after South Tottenham until leaving Wanstead , which is 40 , then 30 at Woodgrange junction and through the station and back upto 45 towards Barking. That's for the Overground , poss slightly different for freight.

Bacon_BMW · 24 Jan 2020

baz962 said:
It's 45 after South Tottenham until leaving Wanstead , which is 40 , then 30 at Woodgrange junction and through the station and back upto 45 towards Barking. That's for the Overground , poss slightly different for freight.

I’m pretty sure it is the same.

Geoff Marshall has a video out of him attempting to do all the Overground stations... needles to say it didn’t work out.

hwl · 24 Jan 2020

Nicholas Lewis said:
NR maintenance teams are on continuous standby to deal with broken rails and do so in a timely fashion. However,when a train derails and continues for some distance causing continuous damage the permanent way it will take considerably longer (2 miles quoted on the NR Anglia website). The few pictures above infer the housings on at least one rail have been sheared off and if its continuous even the use of tie bars with a Temporary Speed Restriction may not a short term palliative to get the line open as it will need resleepering and probably the resources to do that are tied up Maryland this weekend. One would have thought they would be mobilised next week as the line is shut and i would have expected reseleepering even two miles can be done in under a week. However, another observer suggest there are overbridges along this stretch and its entirely plausible that damage has occurred to the wheeltimbers or bridge structure which may have a longer lead time for bespoke components rather than sleepers off a stockpile.

One of the 3 published photos show one of the large screws holding a base plate to a longitudinal bearer pulled out by good inch which suggests significant damage overall.
The early estimate was 1500 sleepers needed replacing, the reality is that it might be easier to replace far more as 1,500 can't be contiguous with those track lengths (circa 18-35% depending on what estimates you use)

Harbon 1 · 24 Jan 2020

No idea if the two broken bits of rail are close to each other, but interesting that both fractures appear to have started either in or around a welded joint.

hwl · 24 Jan 2020

twpsaesneg said:
4

4 miles worth of sleepers and rail is not something that is reasonable to keep "in stock" locally, and the longitudinal bearers will be made to order, because they are unique to each location.
There is also the logistics of moving the materials to site, and where you offload it nearby without completely stopping access to your worksite.
It's not an overnight process.
The railway has contingency plans for many things, but the amount of damage talked of here is exceptional.

Exactly the logistics situation is painful in this case as the whole damaged stretch is on a viaduct with only 1 RRV access point which is very near /at the point the train stopped so effectively all material and equipment has to come in by rail at either end of the work site.

hwl · 24 Jan 2020

Harbon 1 said:
No idea if the two broken bits of rail are close to each other, but interesting that both fractures appear to have started either in or around a welded joint.

One is on a wooden sleeper and other other on a longitudinal bearer (and not at the end) so they can't be that close...

hwl · 24 Jan 2020

Islineclear3_1 said:
I dont know actual speeds but curves are tight around Leyton Midland Road and Wanstead Park and from personal sightings, I guess much lower than 60

The curvature isn't that bad - many of the speed limits round there are due to use of longitudinal bearers on the original bridge decks

Romsey · 24 Jan 2020

mcmad said:
And what is/was 6Z54? Class 6 freight with some sort of gauging restrictions I'm assuming but something out the ordinary or not?

Empty JNA stone tubs which wouldn't have gauging or route availability restrictions when empty. The good, the bad and the wrecks from Channel Tunnel segment trains which ended up as Westbury. The Z is for special traffic additional.

ChiefPlanner · 24 Jan 2020

hwl said:
Exactly the logistics situation is painful in this case as the whole damaged stretch is on a viaduct with only 1 RRV access point which is very near /at the point the train stopped so effectively all material and equipment has to come in by rail at either end of the work site.

A very challenging route (I used to operate it TOC wise) - those bits that are not on viaduct , are in cutting. Largely. Obviously very urban - so no handy places where you could stockpile ballast and so on on a convenient site to move in. Rail access therefore critical for repair work. Of course surrounded by very busy lines not exactly having "spare paths".

LAX54 · 24 Jan 2020

If I read it right, it was just one wheel ! but what IS needed, is / are: 6,000 tonnes of ballast, and 1,500 sleepers, plus some bridge timbers for a bridge or two !
Think this is part of what is req:
148 – Falcons for spoil
60 – Falcons for Base stone
120 – Falcons for Top stone
39 strings of rail

6Gman · 24 Jan 2020

158756 said:
That's a huge amount of disruption for one freight train to cause to London's massively overstretched public transport network. But at the same time it's lucky it didn't happen on the GEML or NLL - would it be acceptable to close either of them for two weeks? If freight can't run without the risk of such disruption there needs to be a serious discussion of whether it should be on rail in London at all. Will the operator be paying the full costs of the closure, including the cost of the repairs and to the local economy?

A question to which the answer is ...

No.

6Gman · 24 Jan 2020

Edders23 said:
I am not an expert nor do I claim to be but I am surprised based on my experience of how businesses are managed and I have more than 30 years experience of that there are no emergency plans for such eventualities but there again the railways have always been very insular in that respect

There have always been contingency plans for a range of scenarios.

But none of them make the impossible possible.

ChiefPlanner · 24 Jan 2020

6Gman said:
A question to which the answer is ...

No.

Again , where is the "like" button.

ChiefPlanner · 24 Jan 2020

swills said:
If I read it right, it was just one wheel ! but what IS needed, is / are: 6,000 tonnes of ballast, and 1,500 sleepers, plus some bridge timbers for a bridge or two !
Think this is part of what is req:
148 – Falcons for spoil
60 – Falcons for Base stone
120 – Falcons for Top stone
39 strings of rail

That really puts things into context. More than a bit of armchair "consideration"

Amlag · 24 Jan 2020

ChiefPlanner said:
That really puts things into context. More than a bit of armchair "consideration"

AND don't forget trains with wagons of new mostly concrete sleepers and wagons to load the damaged sleepers into. One advantage of wood sleepers was that they could usually tolerate a single wagon axle and its two wheels bumping along and just leaving a slightly dented scar on the top surface and not having to be replaced if overall condition was good.

CJK64 · 24 Jan 2020

swills said:
If I read it right, it was just one wheel ! but what IS needed, is / are: 6,000 tonnes of ballast, and 1,500 sleepers, plus some bridge timbers for a bridge or two !
Think this is part of what is req:
148 – Falcons for spoil
60 – Falcons for Base stone
120 – Falcons for Top stone
39 strings of rail

3 miles of rail would equate to 48 strings.
4 miles of rail would equate to 64 strings
Give or take a few.

Plus numerous amounts of IBJ’s.

ChiefPlanner · 24 Jan 2020

Amlag said:
AND don't forget trains with wagons of new mostly concrete sleepers and wagons to load the damaged sleepers into. One advantage of wood sleepers was that they could usually tolerate a single wagon axle and its two wheels bumping along and just leaving a slightly dented scar on the top surface and not having to be replaced if overall condition was good.

An excellent point for consideration - what goes in has something to take out ! - waiting for Baldrick to come back on from his ski-trip to give is expert PW input as well as his deep Anglia knowledge. Sounds like about 80 or so works trains , excluding tamping etc......(not to mention block joints , S+T tasks etc)

No chance of throwing spent ballast on the cutting side down here on the "chimney pot railway" , as the PW did in times of extremis to get the route back (out in the country) ...

And the resilience , or "give" of timber sleepers is noted , - anyone in the past could spot the tell take marks of minor derailments on plain line with wooden sleepers by observing the tell tale scoring. Those who had legitimate reasons to be on the track that is.

CJK64 · 24 Jan 2020

The hope is to remove and replace in panel form rather than individual components.

Dr_Paul · 24 Jan 2020

Amlag said:
AND don't forget trains with wagons of new mostly concrete sleepers and wagons to load the damaged sleepers into. One advantage of wood sleepers was that they could usually tolerate a single wagon axle and its two wheels bumping along and just leaving a slightly dented scar on the top surface and not having to be replaced if overall condition was good.

I noticed in years gone by in various places on the line between Clapham Junction and Waterloo where a derailed wheel had scored quite a few wooden sleepers. Would the same sort of derailment write off a concrete sleeper?

ChiefPlanner · 24 Jan 2020

Dr_Paul said:
I noticed in years gone by in various places on the line between Clapham Junction and Waterloo where a derailed wheel had scored quite a few wooden sleepers. Would the same sort of derailment write off a concrete sleeper?

You need the PW experts to opine on this ........

CJK64 · 24 Jan 2020

Dr_Paul said:
I noticed in years gone by in various places on the line between Clapham Junction and Waterloo where a derailed wheel had scored quite a few wooden sleepers. Would the same sort of derailment write off a concrete sleeper?

It’s usually worse as it smashes concrete sleepers and rips the housing out.

Mojo · 24 Jan 2020

I’m intrigued by how often the service status keeps changing on the line; we’ve had the line fully suspended, then only suspended east of South Tottenham, then only running Upper Holloway to Gospel Oak (one stop). This morning TfL said that services were only running Blackhorse Rd <> Gospel Oak, and National Rail said that services would be suspended Blackhorse Rd to Barking until 10th February. Now when you look at National Rail it says suspended South Tottenham to Barking until 10th February.

greatkingrat · 24 Jan 2020

One problem is the location of the neutral section at South Tottenham. If the power to the east end of the line has to be isolated for any reason, that affects the whole line as the crossover is beyond the neutral section.

Railwaysceptic · 25 Jan 2020

Mojo said:
I’m intrigued by how often the service status keeps changing on the line; we’ve had the line fully suspended, then only suspended east of South Tottenham, then only running Upper Holloway to Gospel Oak (one stop). This morning TfL said that services were only running Blackhorse Rd <> Gospel Oak, and National Rail said that services would be suspended Blackhorse Rd to Barking until 10th February. Now when you look at National Rail it says suspended South Tottenham to Barking until 10th February.

I was at Leyton Midland Road Station today. Staff told me the LO service will be out of action for about a month and that the problem was at Walthamstow Queens Road, not at Leyton. That might explain why they're considering running trains between Blackhorse Road and Gospel Oak.

14xxDave · 25 Jan 2020

When the admittedly empty coal train came off at Heworth it smacked the concrete sleepers. You can still see the marks today, so this must have been bit heavier.

daikilo · 25 Jan 2020

matt_world2004 said:
What speed would the freight have been going to drag for four miles. I though maximum speed on the Goblin was 60.

If the locomotive was on high power the driver may have not noticed say one axle derailed toward rear of train particularly at lowish speed.

O8yityityit · 25 Jan 2020

daikilo said:
If the locomotive was on high power the driver may have not noticed say one axle derailed toward rear of train particularly at lowish speed.

Not speculating on the specifics but often it's a case of the lesser of two evils .
If the train stayed in line and didn't separate , the brake pipe remained continuous and the train continued albeit with additional drag which can be difficult to detect if loco us high power like a 66. Hence lots of track damage.

The other option is train doesn't stay in line , brake pipe separates and train stops sooner. However given the ' chimney pot ' nature of the location, the viaduct could have been badly damaged and people and property killed / damaged.

Given the location this could have been worse. No one hurt and some track damage albeit in a pretty difficult to repair location.

And to those asking why it won't be fixed tomorrow morning , it's because it's not a hornby train set .

Oooooh this armchair is comfy.......

6Z54 Derails Leyton Midland Road 23/01

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