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Welwyn Garden City to Heathrow fare difference

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Skimpot flyer

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A colleague of mine is travelling to Heathrow, off-peak, one weekday in February.
I told her she can now use Contactless throughout, and that the single fare would be £16.10 if she uses the TfL Rail service (not Heathrow Express).
Out of curiousity, as she is worried that a missed 'tap' somewhere en route might cause her to be charged a maximum fare, we researched National Rail Enquiries for the paper fare... which appears to be a stonking £37.10 !!!
On further interrogation of the app, it seems to default to showing only fares that include the use of Heathrow Express trains from Paddington. How do I get it to display the fare for using only TfL Rail services ? I've tried putting Southall or West Drayton into the 'via' field, but it still shows the much higher fare.
Any ideas ?
 
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clagmonster

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The best bet on paper would be an outboundary travelcard. For Welwyn Garden City - London Zones 1-6, this would be £20.00 for a super off peak, not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Terminals before 10:55.
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=WGC&dest=3081&grpd=0035&rte=1000&tkt=0CE

£20.70 for off peak
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal, Farringdon, or Kensington Olympia before 10:00.
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=WGC&dest=3081&grpd=0035&rte=1000&tkt=ODT

£28.60 anytime
www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=WGC&dest=3081
 

Non Multi

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The TfL website's single fares finder is showing the off peak £16.10 fare (£18.80 peak). The contactless fares seem to have been removed or hidden on the NRE site and app.
 

gray1404

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See this page for the fares if she uses National Rail between Central London and Heathrow
https://www.ltfares.com/!fares?orig=NRWGC&dest=NRHXX The lowest via Central London is £16.10 off peak (you will see there is a cheaper fare avoiding Zone 1)

If she uses the London Underground (which she could get on at Kings Cross and get a direct service) to Heathrow then it is only £9.10 off peak going via Central London. See https://www.ltfares.com/!fares?orig=NRWGC&dest=LUHRC Personally I would go for this option because by the time she caught a service from King Cross anyway to connect with the Elizabeth line, she could be on a Piccadilly Line service heading to Heathrow already. (you will see there are other options, as low as £7.90 avoiding Zone 1 but it is a lot of haste involved for the small saving.)
 

cav1975

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If she uses the London Underground (which she could get on at Kings Cross and get a direct service) to Heathrow then it is only £9.10 off peak going via Central London. See https://www.ltfares.com/!fares?orig=NRWGC&dest=LUHRC Personally I would go for this option because by the time she caught a service from King Cross anyway to connect with the Elizabeth line, she could be on a Piccadilly Line service heading to Heathrow already. (you will see there are other options, as low as £7.90 avoiding Zone 1 but it is a lot of haste involved for the small saving.)

I regularly go this way. It is, at worst, 5 minutes longer than even Heathrow Express. There are lifts at Kings Cross, so easy with luggage and of course, no need for an extended walk at Paddington. The only drawback can be that the Piccadilly line can be very busy so I usually target the last carriage on the Underground train to get a better chance f a seat.
 

packermac

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I have not been to either KX Underground or Finsbury Park recently but I know (and it made the press) the "flow" at KX sent you a long way round if you did not know the shortcut to the tube lines. FP I seem to remember was also a walk but forget how far. Also perhaps more chance of a Piccadilly seat if lots are getting off at KX.
Any London local know which is the shortest walk?
 

gray1404

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Good point, the traveler can pick up the Piccadilly Line at Finsbury Park (regular direct services Welwyn Garden City to there) and thus avoid a change of train in central London and the long walk at King Cross Underground station. Personally, I would go for this then and I reckon the journey time should be reasonable. The service will also be quieter boarding at Finsbury Park so more chance of getting a seat.
 

30907

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Good point, the traveler can pick up the Piccadilly Line at Finsbury Park (regular direct services Welwyn Garden City to there) and thus avoid a change of train in central London and the long walk at King Cross Underground station. Personally, I would go for this then and I reckon the journey time should be reasonable. The service will also be quieter boarding at Finsbury Park so more chance of getting a seat.
Finsbury Park is a dreadful place to change to the tube though.
From a Moorgate train, change to the Victoria at Highbury (cross platform) then to the Picc at either Kings X or Green Park.
From a Kings Cross train arriving at Platforms 9-11 it's straighforward; the "long way round" issue only affects arrivals in the main station.
 

717001

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Going towards Heathrow there are now lifts at Finsbury Park - route is convoluted, but not long (2 lifts). Trains busy in morning peak, but quite a lot of passengers do get off there.

Returning, the lift up to platform 7/8 hasn’t been installed yet, so Kings Cross might be better with heavy luggage.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Thanks everyone for the advice and tips. We decided her best (and cheapest) option is to travel to Highbury & Islington, change cross-platform to the Victoria Line, then change at Green Park to get the Piccadilly to Heathrow.
Although it’s a long subterranean walk from Vic to Picc , there are only 4 intermediate stops between Highbury and Green Park (vs 5 if changing at KX). This route also avoids being on a tube passing though the tourist havens at Leicester Square and Piccadilly Circus, too!
 

gray1404

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The only problem with getting on the Piccadilly Line at Green Park is the train can be very busy already by the time the train arrives there and it is not uncommon for large numbers of passengers to be joining at Green Park it's self - hence why Finsbury Park might be better in her case.

Where is the quietest place to join a Piccadilly line service to Heathrow in Central London?
 

35B

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The only problem with getting on the Piccadilly Line at Green Park is the train can be very busy already by the time the train arrives there and it is not uncommon for large numbers of passengers to be joining at Green Park it's self - hence why Finsbury Park might be better in her case.

Where is the quietest place to join a Piccadilly line service to Heathrow in Central London?
I would agree. Personally, I would either risk Finsbury Park, or change at King's Cross, walk or not - the train will churn a fair bit between there and Green Park, giving much better chance of a seat either at the start or for no more than 10 minutes standing. And if you're willing to walk at Green Park, King's Cross mainline to Tube is no worse, even the long way round.
 

pelli

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If you do choose the interchange at Green Park, remember the old saying to follow the signs for "way out" up to the ticket hall and then back down. As can be seen in this schematic, the official interchange routes for the Piccadilly line involve interchange tunnels connected to platform level via congested stairs (or a congested lift), while going via the ticket hall involves only escalators. (If you're luggageless and happy with stairs, it turns out that the escalators are still faster by 15 seconds, provided you're willing to walk up them, according to this Londonist video by Geoff Marshall.) Also going up to the ticket hall avoids the burst of people coming off your train and heading for the same line as you.

Similarly, for interchanging at King's Cross St Pancras (as shown in this schematic) escalators connect the "Central London" ends of the Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria lines (possibly via the old "Euston Road" ticket hall), whereas the interchange tunnels connecting to the new Northern ticket hall end in stairs for the Victoria and Northern lines.

As for getting a seat, I'm not intimately familiar with the Piccadilly line, but looking at the tube map I'd guess plenty of people would get off the westbound Piccadilly at Finsbury Park to interchange cross-platform to the faster Victoria Line for alternative destinations in central London, and also at King's Cross St Pancras for other lines. However, I can't see many people getting off the westbound Piccadilly at Green Park for interchange, since for Victoria Line you could've interchanged earlier to arrive faster, and for many destinations on the Jubilee Line there are alternative routes interchanging earlier. Hence, given the risk of having to stand for nearly an hour, I would choose to get on Piccadilly at Finsbury Park despite the extra travel time (albeit somewhat compensated by one less interchange) and the convoluted step-free route, with a view of grabbing a seat from someone getting off at King's Cross (before people boarding have a chance to get to it) if not earlier.
 

gray1404

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If I'm travelling to Heathrow I end up arriving in Euston and get on the Piccadilly Line at Kings Cross. I have always got a seat by Green Park and I have always been grateful I've not boarded there! The only exception to this is if I've joined in the peak. So if the OP's friend really doesn't want to use Finsbury Park, which they should consider as an option, then I'd recommend they use Kings Cross. Also worth noting that it is the time of touch in that determines if the peak or off peak fare is charged. Touch in 1 second before the peak period starts at the starting station and you'll pay the off peak price for the remainder of the journey regardless (no matter when/where to tough out and back in to change trains and out at your destination).
 

Skimpot flyer

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If I'm travelling to Heathrow I end up arriving in Euston and get on the Piccadilly Line at Kings Cross. I have always got a seat by Green Park and I have always been grateful I've not boarded there! The only exception to this is if I've joined in the peak. So if the OP's friend really doesn't want to use Finsbury Park, which they should consider as an option, then I'd recommend they use Kings Cross. Also worth noting that it is the time of touch in that determines if the peak or off peak fare is charged. Touch in 1 second before the peak period starts at the starting station and you'll pay the off peak price for the remainder of the journey regardless (no matter when/where to tough out and back in to change trains and out at your destination).
Perhaps King’s Cross will be the better choice after all. My friend is travelling midway between the peaks, so no danger of a peak fare. I’m pretty sure there is a grace period of about 1-2 minutes, though. I seem to recall seeing it mentioned on one of Geoff Marshall’s videos on YouTube?
 

packermac

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Perhaps King’s Cross will be the better choice after all. My friend is travelling midway between the peaks, so no danger of a peak fare. I’m pretty sure there is a grace period of about 1-2 minutes, though. I seem to recall seeing it mentioned on one of Geoff Marshall’s videos on YouTube?
If there is it is certainly kept quiet. I have in the past stood with many at Sutton waiting for the clock to tick past 1900 for the end of the evening peak. Maybe pure TFL run services have different rules?
 

Hadders

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If there is it is certainly kept quiet. I have in the past stood with many at Sutton waiting for the clock to tick past 1900 for the end of the evening peak. Maybe pure TFL run services have different rules?

There is a couple of minutes grace in the passengers favour. It isn't publicised (and nor should it be) because if they did then passengers would expect a further couple of minutes on top of that.
 

MikeWh

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If there is it is certainly kept quiet. I have in the past stood with many at Sutton waiting for the clock to tick past 1900 for the end of the evening peak. Maybe pure TFL run services have different rules?
Actual peaks are 0635-0927 and 1605-1857. This was publicised in a response to an FOI request.
There is a couple of minutes grace in the passengers favour. It isn't publicised (and nor should it be) because if they did then passengers would expect a further couple of minutes on top of that.
And they won't get any extra. If you're charged off-peak you've gained, if you're charged peak you should have been.
 

gray1404

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Thanks, that is useful to know. The last time I travelled to Heathrow I got to Euston just before 16:00. As I thought I'd get charged the peak fare regardless I decided to have coffee and an early dinner at Euston. Had I have known about the grace period I might have dashed down to get tapped in. Useful info
 
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