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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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RealTrains07

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https://uckfieldnews.com/battery-operated-trains-for-uckfield-train-line/

Seems Southern aren’t willing to let go of their 171s until a confirmed plan is in place for their replacements - completely different to TPE’s 170 situation...

Not surprising, At least it confirms that GTR are actively looking for replacements considering not a massive amount of time left till EMR wants the 171s brought up

Not surprising they are saying they wont be going until replacements are found considering the TPE incident :lol:
Unfortunately thats a 1 flaw of the franchise system ROSCOs and DfT choosing when and where to send trains
 
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hwl

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Is there any reason why Southern couldn't make do with Super Sprinters for a bit?
  • End doors so poor dwell times - they have to have minimum dwell time in East Croydon Platform 4/5 in am and 5/6 in pm peak other wise they drag GTR PPM down a few % overall with huge reactionary delays. Dwell times at other station along the route would also be a problems on the busiest services
  • Lack of ability to operate 10 car services with SDO (yes Southern do operate 240m DMU services!)
  • Oxted tunnel is very gauge restricted so 20m mk3 suburban stock e.g. 455s/456s (or 150 in the DMU case) can't get through without swiping something going in the other direction.
  • A GTR franchise requirement from DfT that any replacement stock coming into the franchise would be newer & higher spec than anything it replaced
  • GTR is hybrid management contract/franchise so DfT have to agree replacement plans and will take the blame
  • The MP for Uckfield is a Transport Minister...
  • The terms of the leases (different ROSCOs involved) aren't well known but might have terms about franchise extension periods that are subject to DfT agreement e.g if DfT grants GTR the permitted ~1 year extension (which is probable) the lease may state the lease is automatically extended.
 

hwl

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It's difficult to do splits at an intermediate station as crew would have to ensure there were no passengers in the unit that's going to the sidings. This would probably be done by locking that unit out at St Pancras, but then there could be delays at the intermediate stations (potentially impacting on the critical timings of Thameslink) as people try to board the locked-out part.

A common strategy for peak strengthening is for alternate workings at the end of the peak to be run to sidings as full-length trains, with the others then being split in the platform to form the next two return journeys (and the reverse at the start of the evening peak). This uses half as many ECS paths and drivers as splitting/joining each working individually, but does need extra platform space because the train that splits will still be in the station when the next one arrives. Hence it wouldn't work at Corby where ECS paths would be possible to/from Kettering, but there is only one platform. It might not work at St Pancras either as the platforms will be fairly heavily used and ECS paths to/from Cricklewood are more difficult. The other problem is that it doesn't work for reducing 12-car to 8-car, and a three-way version of the same idea to split down to 4-car would need even more platform capacity.

So all in all I agree with Failed Unit that there are likely to be a lot of 12-car units in the off-peak periods.
Given they are marketing the Corby EMU service as the airport express, they need to be very careful about being able to deal with lots of passengers with luggage at Luton Airport without incurring excessive dwell times which suggest they will keep the trains long through the day.
Unless they rip out lots of seats luggage space will be an issue hence keeping the trains long also helps as you need less luggage space per unit and fewer seats removed per unit.
 

LowLevel

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Apparently there's a large question over how the 360s will be crewed.

One member of staff needed per unit. No end gangways and 12 car operation means 3 members of staff per train.

Not very efficient in terms of staffing at all but I understand why they've gone for these units and not any from the Electrostar family.

I don't think there's any particular question over it - EMR have been quite open following staff questions at the start of the franchise that they want conventional guard operated trains on all services but with only one senior conductor or train manager per train regardless of formation, at least for the 170s and 360s. 804s haven't been referred to yet - we don't know what catering facilities etc will be provided on those trains.
 

D365

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Unless they rip out lots of seats luggage space will be an issue hence keeping the trains long also helps as you need less luggage space per unit and fewer seats removed per unit.

The Class 360s will be converted to 2+2 seating, for what it's worth.

As for the debate about running shorter train formations during the off peak, I imagine it won't save that much money, bearing in mind that additional drivers would need to be rostered for ECS moves. For example, Great Northern doesn't tend to run any four car trains during the week.
 

hwl

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The Class 360s will be converted to 2+2 seating, for what it's worth.

As for the debate about running shorter train formations during the off peak, I imagine it won't save that much money, bearing in mind that additional drivers would need to be rostered for ECS moves. For example, Great Northern doesn't tend to run any four car trains during the week.
Exactly having gone 2+2 you don't want to lose lots more rows of seats.
 

Mikey C

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  • End doors so poor dwell times - they have to have minimum dwell time in East Croydon Platform 4/5 in am and 5/6 in pm peak other wise they drag GTR PPM down a few % overall with huge reactionary delays. Dwell times at other station along the route would also be a problems on the busiest services
  • Lack of ability to operate 10 car services with SDO (yes Southern do operate 240m DMU services!)
  • Oxted tunnel is very gauge restricted so 20m mk3 suburban stock e.g. 455s/456s (or 150 in the DMU case) can't get through without swiping something going in the other direction.
  • A GTR franchise requirement from DfT that any replacement stock coming into the franchise would be newer & higher spec than anything it replaced
  • GTR is hybrid management contract/franchise so DfT have to agree replacement plans and will take the blame
  • The MP for Uckfield is a Transport Minister...
  • The terms of the leases (different ROSCOs involved) aren't well known but might have terms about franchise extension periods that are subject to DfT agreement e.g if DfT grants GTR the permitted ~1 year extension (which is probable) the lease may state the lease is automatically extended.
And introducing over 30 year old diesels to run into the shiny new London bridge Station (through the ULEZ zone with its massive restrictions on diesel road vehicles) would go down like a lead balloon politically too!
 

hwl

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And introducing over 30 year old diesels to run into the shiny new London bridge Station (through the ULEZ zone with its massive restrictions on diesel road vehicles) would go down like a lead balloon politically too!
Especially when the station is visible from the Assembly offices too!
 

yorksrob

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Was sat at Leeds looking at an EMT set in the platform on its way to Neville Hill.

It was like watching a close friend on his way to the gallows.

Cursed modernity.
 

whhistle

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... but with only one senior conductor or train manager per train regardless of formation.
So if there's one Train Manager / Guard and one driver per train, what happens to the unit that doesn't have any staff member in it?

XC get away with it as their double units have the driver in one half, Train Manager in the other.

Would be better to scrap off some (360) end cars and make one large through-train perhaps.
 

43096

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Was sat at Leeds looking at an EMT set in the platform on its way to Neville Hill.

It was like watching a close friend on his way to the gallows.

Cursed modernity.
They’ve done their time and need replacing. 40+ years on top link duties is a punishing duty cycle - it should be remembered that the highest mileage power cars are now around 10 million miles. Has any traction ever done that before?
 
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What's happening to LNER's retro HST? Is it one that's being temporarily transferred over to EMR?

In view of the HST association with Derby, it would be nice if it was, ending it's days serving the city where it was designed (all) and built (Mk IIIs), in the livery in which it was originally painted
 

Skymonster

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According to the EMR class 804 [sic] thread...

From the December timetable change, the introduction of the Class 360s on St Pancras to Corby workings, along with the start of Class 180 operations from the same date, will allow EMR to remove the nine HST sets from service.

So the 180s are going to fester at Etches Park for almost a year before entering service? That will do them good and ensure they’re reliable when they start working for EMR - NOT
 

D365

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What's happening to LNER's retro HST? Is it one that's being temporarily transferred over to EMR?

The "retro" HST is not currently slated for transfer to EMR.

So the 180s are going to fester at Etches Park for almost a year before entering service? That will do them good and ensure they’re reliable when they start working for EMR - NOT

I've seen one 180 parked there already! So they're basically depot pets until December?
 

43096

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According to the EMR class 804 [sic] thread...



So the 180s are going to fester at Etches Park for almost a year before entering service? That will do them good and ensure they’re reliable when they start working for EMR - NOT
No. The nine HST sets referred to are the full length sets. I would expect the 180s to replace the 3 6-car HSTs well before that.
 

Skymonster

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No. The nine HST sets referred to are the full length sets. I would expect the 180s to replace the 3 6-car HSTs well before that.
Well we will see... The derogation for the ex GC HSTs runs until end of December 2020.
 

43096

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Well we will see... The derogation for the ex GC HSTs runs until end of December 2020.
The end date of the dispensation doesn’t mean that is when they will run to, it is when they can run to. Northern has a batch of 142s at Heaton that have dispensations but haven’t been used; likewise XC had a dispensation for its remaining slam-door set that isn’t needed.
 

DannyMich2018

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No. The nine HST sets referred to are the full length sets. I would expect the 180s to replace the 3 6-car HSTs well before that.
Yes the ex HT 180s will just replace the ex GC short HSTs like for like. EMR cannot remove all the HSTs till the new 804s are built and in service as the electrification of the Corby line will only release about 3 222s-of course there are more than 3 full length HSTs so these 222s released will be probably used to strengthen existing services.
 

43096

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EMR cannot remove all the HSTs till the new 804s are built and in service as the electrification of the Corby line will only release about 3 222s-of course there are more than 3 full length HSTs so these 222s released will be probably used to strengthen existing services.
Clearly EMR disagree with you....

We’ve been through the numbers on here before and it stacks up. Whether it works in reality we will find out in due course.
 

cactustwirly

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Yes the ex HT 180s will just replace the ex GC short HSTs like for like. EMR cannot remove all the HSTs till the new 804s are built and in service as the electrification of the Corby line will only release about 3 222s-of course there are more than 3 full length HSTs so these 222s released will be probably used to strengthen existing services.

There's also a timetable recast that releases "enough" 222s, not sure if that works in practice
 

NewSt

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What's happening to LNER's retro HST? Is it one that's being temporarily transferred over to EMR?

In view of the HST association with Derby, it would be nice if it was, ending it's days serving the city where it was designed (all) and built (Mk IIIs), in the livery in which it was originally painted

They can’t unfortunately, as the BR livery isn’t PRM compliant due to the doors being the same colour as the rest of the carriage.
 

raetiamann

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I've seen one 180 parked there already! So they're basically depot pets until December?[/QUOTE]

I believe one set has done a run to St Pancras earlier today.
 

D6975

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The Class 360s will be converted to 2+2 seating, for what it's worth.

Don't hold your breath. The turbos moved onto the Pompey-Cardiffs were supposed to get 2+2 seating. They've been in service for a while now and the promised reseat isn't happening.. 2+3 on a long distance route, most unsuitable, but DFT I believe vetoed the change.
 

LowLevel

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Clearly EMR disagree with you....

We’ve been through the numbers on here before and it stacks up. Whether it works in reality we will find out in due course.

A recent staff podcast update has been published by the fleet director in which he acknowledges that questions have been raised but confirms that provided everything happens when it should the timetable will be workable as promised. We shall have to see how the year pans out!
 
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