Midland Mainline Buffer HSTs

C37 · 24 Jan 2020

Question on the HST set with buffers on the MML hopefully someone can help with, I work nearby the MML and can always tell when this set is pulling out of the station, the engines some how sound different.

Is this because it has a different engines to the standard non buffer HSTs?

Also, why does this set have only 6 coaches, compared to the other, longer versions?

Thanks in advance

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ohgoditsjames · 24 Jan 2020

C37 said:
Question on the HST set with buffers on the MML hopefully someone can help with, I work nearby the MML and can always tell when this set is pulling out of the station, the engines some how sound different.

Is this because it has a different engines to the standard non buffer HSTs?

Also, why does this set have only 6 coaches, compared to the other, longer versions?

Thanks in advance

The 6 coaches are for the better acceleration and thus can keep timing better I think? Not sure about your other question though.

Darandio · 24 Jan 2020

The ex-Grand Central powercars have an MTU engine, the majority (or all??) of East Midlands Railway ones have a VP-185 engine.

anthony kelly · 24 Jan 2020

This better engine sadly all to be gone soon

hexagon789 · 24 Jan 2020

Darandio said:
The ex-Grand Central powercars have an MTU engine, the majority (or all??) of East Midlands Railway ones have a VP-185 engine.

All the non-buffer are VP185, I can't remember if it was MM or EMT that standardised on that though

43096 · 24 Jan 2020

hexagon789 said:
All the non-buffer are VP185, I can't remember if it was MM or EMT that standardised on that though

EMT. The last 8 conversions were done at the start of the EMT franchise when the engines became available from the FGW MTU programme.

NoOnesFool · 24 Jan 2020

C37 said:
Question on the HST set with buffers on the MML hopefully someone can help with, I work nearby the MML and can always tell when this set is pulling out of the station, the engines some how sound different.

Is this because it has a different engines to the standard non buffer HSTs?

Also, why does this set have only 6 coaches, compared to the other, longer versions?

Thanks in advance

The buffer HSTs have MTU engines, which were installed when they were used by Grand Central. The other power cars have VP185 engines, which sound similar to the original HST engines.

hooverboy · 25 Jan 2020

NoOnesFool said:
The buffer HSTs have MTU engines, which were installed when they were used by Grand Central. The other power cars have VP185 engines, which sound similar to the original HST engines.

nothing beats the originals!!!

Aictos · 25 Jan 2020

hooverboy said:
nothing beats the originals!!!

Awful things! MTU engines are far superior in every way!

43096 · 25 Jan 2020

Aictos said:
Awful things! MTU engines are far superior in every way!

Without the Valenta there wouldn’t have been an HST in the first place. Without HST the Inter-City railway would be very different.

43 302 · 25 Jan 2020

43096 said:
Without the Valenta there wouldn’t have been an HST in the first place. Without HST the Inter-City railway would be very different.

And without MTUs and VP185 HSTs wouldn't be running today!

Aictos · 25 Jan 2020

43096 said:
Without the Valenta there wouldn’t have been an HST in the first place. Without HST the Inter-City railway would be very different.

I know but just saying they should be consigned to the dustbin of history in some museum.

43096 · 25 Jan 2020

43 302 said:
And without MTUs and VP185 HSTs wouldn't be running today!

I would argue that the re-engining project shouldn’t have happened and that new trains should have been built around 10 years ago.

hooverboy · 25 Jan 2020

43096 said:
I would argue that the re-engining project shouldn’t have happened and that new trains should have been built around 10 years ago.

well the originals do have nostalgic value don't they. Nothing quite come close to that deafening scream of the turbocharger as the old girls throttle up.

It used to scare a lot of children!!!, but I was utterly enthralled by them!

hexagon789 · 25 Jan 2020

43096 said:
I would argue that the re-engining project shouldn’t have happened and that new trains should have been built around 10 years ago.

Perhaps they should've procured more 9-car 222s to start with?

43 302 said:
And without MTUs and VP185 HSTs wouldn't be running today!

Don't see why not, Valentas managed to power HSTs for over 20 years, I think they could've done it beyond 2010.

43096 · 25 Jan 2020

hooverboy said:
well the originals do have nostalgic value don't they. Nothing quite come close to that deafening scream of the turbocharger as the old girls throttle up.

It used to scare a lot of children!!!, but I was utterly enthralled by them!

You'll enjoy this then:

The full power car "orchestra" of Valenta engine, Napier turbocharger, Marston cooler group and Brush traction motors.

A totally useless fact for you, the engine governor on the engine in that clip is the one that was/is on 41001.

43 302 · 25 Jan 2020

hexagon789 said:
Perhaps they should've procured more 9-car 222s to start with?

Don't see why not, Valentas managed to power HSTs for over 20 years, I think they could've done it beyond 2010.

Yes they probably could have had the TOCs/DfT wanted too, but it wouldn't have been cost effective. The option was either procure more stock or upgrade and refurbish the HSTs.

hexagon789 · 25 Jan 2020

43 302 said:
Yes they probably could have had the TOCs/DfT wanted too, but it wouldn't have been cost effective. The option was either procure more stock or upgrade and refurbish the HSTs.

The 9-cars they did get sat around for long enough, I don't think that was cost effective as such!

coppercapped · 25 Jan 2020

hexagon789 said:
Don't see why not, Valentas managed to power HSTs for over 20 years, I think they could've done it beyond 2010.

Er, no!
The Valentas were knackered. After 30 years of high power use (1976 to around 2006) practically all of them had cracked cylinder blocks or sumps and some even had the top power notch locked out.

Re-engining them was the only way to keep them running to offer any sort of reliable train service.

43096 · 25 Jan 2020

coppercapped said:
The Valentas were knackered. After 30 years of high power use (1976 to around 2006) practically all of them had cracked cylinder blocks or sumps and some even had the top power notch locked out.

Having notch 5 taped out isn't just about the engine: can be a power car suffering with repeated high water temperature faults, bedding in new traction motor brushes, suffering power-earth faults (especially GEC motor cars) etc etc. Except possibly towards the end on FGW - where a deliberate policy of not maintaining the engines was in place to the detriment of service reliability - there was no long-term routine isolating of notch 5 for engine faults - they were normally attended to quickly. Indeed on East Coast this would be jumped on very quickly with their longer 9-car sets.

Ladder23 · 25 Jan 2020

Aictos said:
Awful things! MTU engines are far superior in every way!

I agree !!!

hexagon789 · 25 Jan 2020

coppercapped said:
Er, no!
The Valentas were knackered. After 30 years of high power use (1976 to around 2006) practically all of them had cracked cylinder blocks or sumps and some even had the top power notch locked out.

Re-engining them was the only way to keep them running to offer any sort of reliable train service.

Fair enough

Ladder23 said:
I agree !!!

Disagree

Ashley Hill · 25 Jan 2020

I always liked the sound of the Mirlees engines in 43165-170.

hexagon789 · 25 Jan 2020

Ashley Hill said:
I always liked the sound of the Mirlees engines in 43165-170.

I've heard one in a video and it's difficult to describe them. Quieter than a Valenta and more sort of "rumbly" with no pronounced turbocharger "scream".

Ashley Hill · 25 Jan 2020

Yes,rumbly is a good description. Deep and satisfying. I wonder what happened to the power units after removal. I think 43168 was the last PC to carry one.

hexagon789 · 25 Jan 2020

Ashley Hill said:
Yes,rumbly is a good description. Deep and satisfying. I wonder what happened to the power units after removal. I think 43168 was the last PC to carry one.

Yes, lasted until 31/01/1996, nine years to the day after the first passenger run with an MB190 by that point Notches 4 and 5 had been isolated to prolong engine life.

I think '168 was the PC in the video I saw

43096 · 26 Jan 2020

Ashley Hill said:
I always liked the sound of the Mirlees engines in 43165-170.

It was 43167-170 that had the Mirrlees MB190 engines.

Ashley Hill · 26 Jan 2020

43096 said:
It was 43167-170 that had the Mirrlees MB190 engines.

Cheers. Time dulls the memory.

Midland Mainline Buffer HSTs

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