Passenger Vs social media staff when Guard didn't appear to issue tickets on a Northern train

startingaparty · 25 Jan 2020

I came across something on Twitter today. A customer gloating about how he hasn't had to pay for his ticket and the social media staff has looked at his historical tweets and "blacklisted" him from what I can discern.

EDIT Please see below for a transcript of the screenshots:

Customer: Managed to get 2 free trains yday because @northernassist conductors would rather sit in their little cab than sell and inspect tickets. Thanks guys! I'll try again today.

@northernassist: Hi, your tweet has been logged and conductors along lines you have frequently contacted us about informed you intend to deliberately travel without a ticket. Boarding a train without valid tickets is an offence and will lead to a fine. ^HF

Customer: Surprised you've been able to get hold of the conductors to be honest, 'HF'. Will continue to enjoy travelling for free if your own staff can't be bothered to do their jobs! "

https://mobile.twitter.com/wndzr/status/1220971922898505729

RailUK Forums

SlimJim1694 · 25 Jan 2020

What an idiot.

fishquinn · 25 Jan 2020

Where does the passenger say that the stations he travelled between had ticket facilities? It may well be that he had no opportunity to pay.

yorkie · 25 Jan 2020

There isn't sufficient information to know if the person was intentionally dodging the fare.

If there was no facility at the origin and destination and the Guard won't sell a ticket (which may have been the case here), what can you do?

A forum member did actually write to Northern asking for an invoice in such circumstances and Northern declined to invoice and said not to worry about it.

GTR told a group of passengers not to worry about their fare a few weeks ago as there was no facility at origin or destination and no commercial staff aboard the train.

It happens a lot more than some people may think and it's not the passengers fault if no facility is provided.

SlimJim1694 said:
What an idiot.

If there was no further tweet and it was just as presented here, then I agree, it was idiotic to make that accusation without the full facts, and if I made such an idiotic accusation against a customer without such facts, I would expect to be in trouble.

There may be some evidence we haven't been shown though. We do require a link to the original content as per forum rules, as well as a text version to ensure the post is accessible to our blind members. I have asked the OP to edit their post accordingly.

a_c_skinner · 25 Jan 2020

To be honest the main effect of ticket machines on my local trips has been to reduce the visibility of the conductor even more. Get a promise to pay, have cash and many journeys are going to be free and low risk, unless you've been stupid enough to brag about it.

Alan2603 · 25 Jan 2020

In the past week I have been working away for a couple of days and staying with relatives a closer to where I was working.

To get to where I was working from my relatives place, I twice travelled on a northern service from an unstaffed rural station to another unstaffed rural station. Neither station has a TVM.

Although it is a short journey (circa 16 minutes) on both occasions the guard never appeared. On the second occasion I even knocked on the door at the back of the train and got no response.

Hence, I never paid the £8.00 per journey.

The worry is that this is actually in a ‘Penalty Fare’ area according to northern’s website. I did wonder how I would ‘fare’ (pardon the pun) if the revenue team got on at the intermediate station and I had no ticket or proof of where I had got on the train.

Obviously, I haven’t tweeted them about it, but it does make you wonder how many people are getting away without paying, purely down to the fact they cannot pay, either at the station of origin or destination and the guard hasn't appeared (or even responded to a knock on his door).

The stupid thing is the firm I was doing the work for were more than happy to reimburse the train fares, so it would have cost me nothing personally, but they are £16 up and northern are £16 down!

Bantamzen · 25 Jan 2020

a_c_skinner said:
To be honest the main effect of ticket machines on my local trips has been to reduce the visibility of the conductor even more. Get a promise to pay, have cash and many journeys are going to be free and low risk, unless you've been stupid enough to brag about it.

I wouldn't say that's the case everywhere, guards are still very visible around some parts. However what is the case here is some prat thinking they are clever, expect a whining Tweet in the coming months when it backfires on them.

a_c_skinner · 25 Jan 2020

To be honest I've stopped worrying about Northern ticket inspections. I wrote to them years ago after a rash of unable to buy tickets on the Furness Line. I got a reply saying their guards are often engaged on safety tasks. I do buy (app or TVM) before boarding but a promise to pay and cash seems to be pretty watertight if challenged and there doesn't seem a duty to seek out the guard if they do not present themselves.

Paul_10 · 25 Jan 2020

Would love to know the reasons(or excuses?) not to check tickets but it can be frustrating when you know some people on the same train as yourself gets a free ride and your ending up paying.

What is this promise to pay button about?

30907 · 25 Jan 2020

Paul_10 said:
what is this promise to pay button about?

Northern's version of the old Permit to Travel machine, but you have to specify a journey. Supposed to be for use when you intend to pay cash as the machines understandably are card only.

NoMorePacers · 25 Jan 2020

Bantamzen said:
I wouldn't say that's the case everywhere, guards are still very visible around some parts. However what is the case here is some prat thinking they are clever, expect a whining Tweet in the coming months when it backfires on them.

In my experience you’re more likely to see a guard in Yorkshire than you are in the North West, although they could be reasons for that, I don’t know.

Crossover · 25 Jan 2020

The Tweeter is a bit daft really - logic suggests one stays schtum about these things!

It doesn't seem to matter whether there is a TVM - at a station I tend to use, it spends more time not working (in a variety of new and interesting ways) than it seems to spend in a state where it can actally issue anything at all (which is particularly annoying when it comes to trying to collect!)

xc170 · 25 Jan 2020

Customer: Surprised you've been able to get hold of the conductors to be honest, 'HF'. Will continue to enjoy travelling for free if your own staff can't be bothered to do their jobs! "

He has a point!

I know the standard response on here to this sort of thing is that the guard will have been doing safety critical stuff, but in reality, we all know that is far from the truth...

Andrew S · 25 Jan 2020

Good luck to the guy, I say.

raveon · 25 Jan 2020

xc170 said:
I know the standard response on here to this sort of thing is that the guard will have been doing safety critical stuff, but in reality, we all know that is far from the truth...

Indeed; I have noticed a significant reduction in guard visibility in the north west in the last 6-12 months.

SlimJim1694 · 25 Jan 2020

My point about him being an idiot relates to him tweeting about it. He's asking to have his card marked.

jkkne · 25 Jan 2020

Newcastle to Hexham return today. Match day. Guaranteed no ticket check as the train fills at Hexham. Same on the return. Even users of go north East’s express bus are clicking on.

I’ve got my season ticket but match going mates haven’t paid a penny in years (aided by Newcastle gates always being open)

Geeves · 26 Jan 2020

There is every chance hes is on a 4 car set with no through gangway so even if the guard wanted to go through he cannot. That's the rules set by Northern Management. Not to mention the guards ticket machines have terrible battery life. There is a TVM at every station now but then again the TVMs are also terrible!

Hugo3000 · 26 Jan 2020

It's a good job there's so many people on here who can monitor and appraise all the Northern guards. In fact, I'd be a little worried if I was a conductor manager as it seems so many of you know the role inside out and can lay down judgement as you see fit. This will naturally be based on your near 100% patronage of the thousands of Northern train services per week.

class26 · 26 Jan 2020

I frequently travel between my home village of Heckington and either Sleaford (7 mins) or Boston (18 mins) and the guard never comes to for tickets . In the case of Sleaford the ticket office closes at lunch so there really is no opportunity to voluntary pay and Boston closes at 15.20. I remember last year I had 5 successive "free" journeys. On one of those occasions 16 people boarded at Heckington for Sleaford and although some may have had a return ticket i would hazard a guess that most, if not all got a free journey.

Alan2603 · 26 Jan 2020

Geeves said:
There is a TVM at every station now

Are you sure?

I couldn't find one at Arram last week (nor Hutton Cranswick or Nafferton). Unless they are disguised as lamp posts or something?

Alan

LowLevel · 26 Jan 2020

class26 said:
I frequently travel between my home village of Heckington and either Sleaford (7 mins) or Boston (18 mins) and the guard never comes to for tickets . In the case of Sleaford the ticket office closes at lunch so there really is no opportunity to voluntary pay and Boston closes at 15.20. I remember last year I had 5 successive "free" journeys. On one of those occasions 16 people boarded at Heckington for Sleaford and although some may have had a return ticket i would hazard a guess that most, if not all got a free journey.

That's odd because I'm a guard on those trains and I come round for tickets every time I work them and judging by the number of onboard issued tickets I see as return portions so do plenty of others :lol:

I must remember to never, ever, ever do tickets out of Heckington in future!

What does affect ticket sales is the reduction in commission available to conductors. Introducing vending machines and online apps etc has significantly reduced this at some depots and few if any companies have said 'OK, we accept we are reducing your take home pay, how do we look at mitigating this?'.

Consequently I know some guards refuse to check tickets and only sell them to maximise their take home, refuse to use recall functions to print off pre purchased tickets because the company doesn't pay commission for that despite it taking the same amount of time as issuing a new ticket etc and some are just demoralised and don't bother at all.

You can't knock a 3 figure sum in some cases off monthly salaries without comment without expecting some kick back from those affected.

2L70 · 26 Jan 2020

class26 said:
I frequently travel between my home village of Heckington and either Sleaford (7 mins) or Boston (18 mins) and the guard never comes to for tickets .

Depending on where you sit you probably won’t see much of Revenue staff as they’re too busy dealing with the declined/prepayment cards being used to pay around Heckington and Sleaford...

NoMorePacers · 26 Jan 2020

In contrast, I have never been on a train out of Hull where the guard hasn’t done a ticket check at least once.

Tetchytyke · 26 Jan 2020

LowLevel said:
You can't knock a 3 figure sum in some cases off monthly salaries without comment without expecting some kick back from those affected.

Interesting thought, it's something I've wondered about with the rise of TVMs. Less commission and more aggro- honest passengers have usually used the TVM- and people wonder why staff are less visible.

Not your TOC, but do guards get commission where a Promise to Pay is cashed in?

175mph · 26 Jan 2020

NoMorePacers said:
In contrast, I have never been on a train out of Hull where the guard hasn’t done a ticket check at least once.

When I've been on a train from Hull to Beverley, the tickets never seem to get checked until the train has passed through Cottingham, then on the return journey between Cottingham and Hull, again, no ticket checks.

1D53 · 26 Jan 2020

Tetchytyke said:
Not your TOC, but do guards get commission where a Promise to Pay is cashed in?

Nope.

LowLevel · 26 Jan 2020

Tetchytyke said:
Interesting thought, it's something I've wondered about with the rise of TVMs. Less commission and more aggro- honest passengers have usually used the TVM- and people wonder why staff are less visible.

Not your TOC, but do guards get commission where a Promise to Pay is cashed in?

No idea how Northern work as it's their scheme. I do work through areas where they're issued and I just tear them in half and bin them so it makes no difference to us.

londonbridge · 26 Jan 2020

yorkie said:
A forum member did actually write to Northern asking for an invoice in such circumstances and Northern declined to invoice and said not to worry about it.

GTR told a group of passengers not to worry about their fare a few weeks ago as there was no facility at origin or destination and no commercial staff aboard the train.

I've had similar, was on a Midlands Metro tram going from Birmingham City Centre to The Hawthorns for a West Brom game. The conductor hadn't reached me before we arrived so I approached him and said "I need a ticket, I'm getting off here". He replied with "Just jump off and don't worry about it, mate".

js1000 · 26 Jan 2020

Geeves said:
There is every chance hes is on a 4 car set with no through gangway so even if the guard wanted to go through he cannot. That's the rules set by Northern Management. Not to mention the guards ticket machines have terrible battery life. There is a TVM at every station now but then again the TVMs are also terrible!

The new Northern franchise definitely need to review revenue operations.

- M-tickets are open to abuse. See a conductor or random RPI at the destination & activate/buy ticket on phone to avoid a fine. Simple way around this would be to provide a QR code on a screen at the station on the platforms which will allow you 10 minutes to complete ticket purchase. This could change daily to prevent abuse.

- The TVMs interface and reliability are dire. Even Northern ticket office staff joke about how poor they are.

- Northern guards need to be incentivised more to sell tickets. Since the new franchise I've noticed this has declined sharply, potentially due to low morale and poor battery life on the TVMs.

- Too many RPIs and not enough drivers and guards. More cancellations naturally leads to more delay repay claims - the administration of which are a drag on TOC revenue.

Passenger Vs social media staff when Guard didn't appear to issue tickets on a Northern train

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