TfW Timetable Disparities

Belperpete · 26 Jan 2020

Looking in the TfW pocket timetable for the Cambrian
(timetable 1 on https://tfwrail.wales/december-2019-timetables )
it shows the 1415 from Euston as the connection if you want to get the 1610 Birmingham International to Aberyswyth service. However, TFW's journey planner gives the 1443 (not 1415) from Euston as the connection into the 1610.

Likewise for the 1810 from International, the pocket timetable gives the 1615 from Euston, whereas journey planner gives the 1643 from Euston.

Furthermore, the journey planner shows the 1743 from Euston connecting into a 1910 from International to Shrewsbury, in turn connecting into the 2032 to Aber. These connections are not shown at all in the pocket timetable.

Worst still, the pocket timetable shows the 2032 from Shrewsbury arriving at Machynlleth at 2144, too late to make the 4 minute connection into the 2147 service to Pwllheli (the last train up the Coast). Whereas journey planner shows it arriving at 2143. So, according to the pocket timetable, if you want to catch the last Coast service, you would have to leave Euston at 1615, whereas journey planner allows you to leave Euston at 1743. This is quite a disparity.

If I was to catch the 1743 from Euston and missed the connection at either International or Shrewsbury, would TfW be able to point at their pocket timetable and say "sorry, it is not an advertised connection"?

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Flying Snail · 26 Jan 2020

From looking at the north and south wales PDFs it appears this round are very poor, riddled with errors and omissions. NR have basically flushed the network timetable down the toilet, it is no surprise the TOC issued ones are following.

Baxenden Bank · 26 Jan 2020

Belperpete said:
Looking in the TfW pocket timetable for the Cambrian
(timetable 1 on https://tfwrail.wales/december-2019-timetables )
it shows the 1415 from Euston as the connection if you want to get the 1610 Birmingham International to Aberyswyth service. However, TFW's journey planner gives the 1443 (not 1415) from Euston as the connection into the 1610.

Likewise for the 1810 from International, the pocket timetable gives the 1615 from Euston, whereas journey planner gives the 1643 from Euston.

Furthermore, the journey planner shows the 1743 from Euston connecting into a 1910 from International to Shrewsbury, in turn connecting into the 2032 to Aber. These connections are not shown at all in the pocket timetable.

Worst still, the pocket timetable shows the 2032 from Shrewsbury arriving at Machynlleth at 2144, too late to make the 4 minute connection into the 2147 service to Pwllheli (the last train up the Coast). Whereas journey planner shows it arriving at 2143. So, according to the pocket timetable, if you want to catch the last Coast service, you would have to leave Euston at 1615, whereas journey planner allows you to leave Euston at 1743. This is quite a disparity.

If I was to catch the 1743 from Euston and missed the connection at either International or Shrewsbury, would TfW be able to point at their pocket timetable and say "sorry, it is not an advertised connection"?

Regarding the Machynlleth connection (to Pwllheli), it's one of those local knowledge things. Regulars know the connection will be made/held but that is of no use to the occasional traveller! Previously it was a 'negative connection' following a timetable recast. There was some debate on this forum about it - something to do with permitted driver hours as I recall.

Regarding the final point, personally I would never automatically rely on connections printed in timetables. I would check them 'train by train' ensuring that the minimum connection times at each station were met. Especially so if late at night or on a route with a sparse service. If relying on a tight / dubious connection I would print out / screenshot the itinerary, carry it with me for on the ground proof and keep the copy for any subsequent delay / repay claim or complaint.

Regarding @Flying Snail 's comments on the printed / pdf times. Yes they are quite appalling. West Wales is just as bad. Poor column placing re connecting trains being a dozen columns apart (see the Tenby terminators), incorrect header notes re days of operation etc, and incorrect explanation of those notes below the timetable bank.

VT 390 · 26 Jan 2020

Belperpete said:
Looking in the TfW pocket timetable for the Cambrian
(timetable 1 on https://tfwrail.wales/december-2019-timetables )
it shows the 1415 from Euston as the connection if you want to get the 1610 Birmingham International to Aberyswyth service. However, TFW's journey planner gives the 1443 (not 1415) from Euston as the connection into the 1610.

Likewise for the 1810 from International, the pocket timetable gives the 1615 from Euston, whereas journey planner gives the 1643 from Euston.

Furthermore, the journey planner shows the 1743 from Euston connecting into a 1910 from International to Shrewsbury, in turn connecting into the 2032 to Aber. These connections are not shown at all in the pocket timetable.

Worst still, the pocket timetable shows the 2032 from Shrewsbury arriving at Machynlleth at 2144, too late to make the 4 minute connection into the 2147 service to Pwllheli (the last train up the Coast). Whereas journey planner shows it arriving at 2143. So, according to the pocket timetable, if you want to catch the last Coast service, you would have to leave Euston at 1615, whereas journey planner allows you to leave Euston at 1743. This is quite a disparity.

If I was to catch the 1743 from Euston and missed the connection at either International or Shrewsbury, would TfW be able to point at their pocket timetable and say "sorry, it is not an advertised connection"?

Could the fact that thw 16:15 is a London NorthWestern Railway service and the 16:43 in an Avanti West Coast service, though I don't see how?

In general though the Transport for Wales printed timetables are all quite bad this time for example in the South Wales one it shows a direct GWR service from Fishguard Harbour to London Paddington at 02:37 but this is actually a separate service to Carmarthen, which is impossible to connect on to that GWR service at Swansea.

Johnny Lewis · 26 Jan 2020

Unfortunately, with only one or two exceptions, timetable production is seen as an outmoded concept and largely unnecessary. It's being continually drummed into us that paper timetables are out of date before they're printed, don't take account of any engineering work, aren't generally understood by the vast majority of the travelling public etc etc.
Automated software is used to create timetables, but this is only as good as the programming rules behind it, and will not take into account the nuances of the railway geography.
I'm guessing that the inconsistency in London connections in the example above is probably because the software has been programmed to generate connections at Birmingham New Street, where a minimum of 12 (or it may still be 15?) minutes is required between trains to regard them as a connection. Whereas, if a TfW service starts at Birmingham International, the same connecting service from London Euston needs to be only 5 minutes apart to generate a connection. Only local knowledge of this sort of thing, and an understanding of how timetables are put together, both now virtually consigned to the past, will ensure that the final timetable output has any worth at all.

splashoutradio · 27 Jan 2020

It appears connection times might be causing issues for TfW publicity. On the Heart of Wales line a good number of connections for Crewe & Cardiff require time travel!

Also, the 17:42 Pwllheli - Machynlleth (a non-connecting TfW service) is shown as running 'FO' in the weekday timetable. I did get in touch regarding this, and was assured it's an error in the timetable and does run throughout the week.

Baxenden Bank · 27 Jan 2020

splashoutradio said:
Also, the 17:42 Pwllheli - Machynlleth (a non-connecting TfW service) is shown as running 'FO' in the weekday timetable. I did get in touch regarding this, and was assured it's an error in the timetable and does run throughout the week.

Did they apologise for the error?
Did they take any action as a result? ie add a note to the website, update the pdf's, print an amendment sheet. I guess no to all three.

Wilts Wanderer · 27 Jan 2020

Johnny Lewis said:
Unfortunately, with only one or two exceptions, timetable production is seen as an outmoded concept and largely unnecessary. It's being continually drummed into us that paper timetables are out of date before they're printed, don't take account of any engineering work, aren't generally understood by the vast majority of the travelling public etc etc.
Automated software is used to create timetables, but this is only as good as the programming rules behind it, and will not take into account the nuances of the railway geography.
I'm guessing that the inconsistency in London connections in the example above is probably because the software has been programmed to generate connections at Birmingham New Street, where a minimum of 12 (or it may still be 15?) minutes is required between trains to regard them as a connection. Whereas, if a TfW service starts at Birmingham International, the same connecting service from London Euston needs to be only 5 minutes apart to generate a connection. Only local knowledge of this sort of thing, and an understanding of how timetables are put together, both now virtually consigned to the past, will ensure that the final timetable output has any worth at all.

Let’s not tar all TOCs with the same brush. TfW might treat its paper productions with disdain, but GWR by comparison does an excellent job. It comes down to how much effort a company is actually willing to put in, which I guess ultimately reflects on the individuals in charge of managing it. Luckily some are more enlightened than others, recognising that good printed publicity is a fundamental part of a healthy relationship between operator and stakeholders.

TfW Timetable Disparities

Belperpete

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Flying Snail

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Baxenden Bank

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VT 390

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Johnny Lewis

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splashoutradio

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Baxenden Bank

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Wilts Wanderer

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