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G&SW passenger numbers up, despite seeming lack of interest by Scotrail

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70014IronDuke

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I have been wondering for some time if Scotrail care about the G&SW, at least the Kilmarnock-Carlisle section. It doesn't seem to have had any service improvements for years, during which time Scotrail have been busily enhancing services and/or infrastructure on eg Dundee - Aberdeen, Aberdeen - Inverness, and the Highland main line.

OK, the weekday Dumfries - Carlisle frequency is ok-ish, I suppose, but it's still fairly slow. (Is the line speed 60 mph or 70 mph?)
The Dumfries - Kilmarnock section really feels almost like its being treated a la BR with secondary routes in 1966. As for the Sunday service, it's poor at the southern end, and appalling in the mid section.

Yet, in spite of the luke-warm attitude at the top, passenger numbers for 2018-9 show healthy growth on the previous 12 months.
Gretna is up nearly 6,000 to 45,880 (+14.9%)
Annan up 10,000 to 139,000 (+ 7.2%)
Dumfries up 20,000 to 402K (+ 5.2%)
Sanquhar (28,000) is down a bit, Kirckonel (21,820) up a bit,
New Cumnock up 1,580 (+ 5.9%)
Auckinleck up 10,350 (+ 15.4%)
Kilmarnock - which of course sees a decent service to Glasgow - is a wee bit down at 609,000.

I can accept that lines like Dundee - Aberdeen until recently held out out obvious untapped potential and should take priority in terms of service improvements, but the G&SW definitely comes over as a Cinderalla line - just seems odd that Scotrail seem barely interested in the line. Is there no effective rail lobby in the area or what?
 
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InOban

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It would be interesting to know what proportion of the Dumfries traffic is towards Glasgow v to Carlisle, and how this is changing. After all, even the busiest of the intermediate stations sees fewer than 100 entries and exits per day.
 

snookertam

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The Sunday service between Kilmarnock and Dumfries is pretty scandalous - the first departure from Glasgow Central is at 1503! Everywhere else in the country the old Sunday lack of service has been removed but it still seems to hold out strongly in this area. Even a morning Dumfries to Glasgow Central and a Glasgow Central to Carlisle to balance would be a strong improvement.

Even Ayr to Stranraer has a two hourly frequency on Sundays doesn't it?
 

ainsworth74

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Surely it's despite the lack of interest of Transport Scotland? Most if not all the improvements that have appeared elsewhere in Scotland have mostly been lead by the specification that TS issued for the Scotrail franchise last time around.
 

Bevan Price

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Some 80 mph limits between Dumfries and Gretna (but the Class 156s are limited to 75 mph). but otherwise, long stretches where the maximum is only 65 or 70 mph.
 

hexagon789

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I have been wondering for some time if Scotrail care about the G&SW, at least the Kilmarnock-Carlisle section. It doesn't seem to have had any service improvements for years, during which time Scotrail have been busily enhancing services and/or infrastructure on eg Dundee - Aberdeen, Aberdeen - Inverness, and the Highland main line.

OK, the weekday Dumfries - Carlisle frequency is ok-ish, I suppose, but it's still fairly slow. (Is the line speed 60 mph or 70 mph?)
The Dumfries - Kilmarnock section really feels almost like its being treated a la BR with secondary routes in 1966. As for the Sunday service, it's poor at the southern end, and appalling in the mid section.

Yet, in spite of the luke-warm attitude at the top, passenger numbers for 2018-9 show healthy growth on the previous 12 months.
Gretna is up nearly 6,000 to 45,880 (+14.9%)
Annan up 10,000 to 139,000 (+ 7.2%)
Dumfries up 20,000 to 402K (+ 5.2%)
Sanquhar (28,000) is down a bit, Kirckonel (21,820) up a bit,
New Cumnock up 1,580 (+ 5.9%)
Auckinleck up 10,350 (+ 15.4%)
Kilmarnock - which of course sees a decent service to Glasgow - is a wee bit down at 609,000.

I can accept that lines like Dundee - Aberdeen until recently held out out obvious untapped potential and should take priority in terms of service improvements, but the G&SW definitely comes over as a Cinderalla line - just seems odd that Scotrail seem barely interested in the line. Is there no effective rail lobby in the area or what?

The Sunday service is the first thing that needs improved, but perhaps a far more regular Carlisle service is the next step after that, presently it's not always every two-hours.

Some 80 mph limits between Dumfries and Gretna (but the Class 156s are limited to 75 mph). but otherwise, long stretches where the maximum is only 65 or 70 mph.

ScotRail proposed raising linespeed south of Kilmarnock to 90mph wherever possible in 1985 to allow for a faster through service journey time.
 

156478

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A total lack of 156s and bad overcrowding on the more urban areas of the line at Barrhead and East Kilbride is the main reason for the service stagnating further down the line. That's no consolation for anyone, it's just the way it is just now unfortunately.
Theres a lot of potential in the future though. When the EK and Barrhead routes are eventually electrified this hopefully will allow more 156s to be released to run a much needed Hourly services North of Dumfries.
Sunday services are dictated due to Signal box opening hours between Dumfries and Kilmarnock. At least two boxes are only single shifted on Sundays on this section.
 

47271

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A total lack of 156s and bad overcrowding on the more urban areas of the line at Barrhead and East Kilbride is the main reason for the service stagnating further down the line. That's no consolation for anyone, it's just the way it is just now unfortunately.
Theres a lot of potential in the future though. When the EK and Barrhead routes are eventually electrified this hopefully will allow more 156s to be released to run a much needed Hourly services North of Dumfries.
Sunday services are dictated due to Signal box opening hours between Dumfries and Kilmarnock. At least two boxes are only single shifted on Sundays on this section.
You could argue that the presence, rather than a lack of, 156s is a bigger problem for the route. It could do with trains at least as good as those used on the Borders.
 

xotGD

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Northern should step in and provide a Carlisle - Dumfries shuttle.
 

Peregrine 4903

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I had to travel from Euston to Dumfries back in October and the train from Carlisle to Dumfries was very well loaded on a Friday evening, although practically the whole train emptied at Dumfries. However when travelling back on Sunday and catching the first train of the day from Dumfries to Carlisle at 13:30 the train was completely full and standing as a 2 coach 156. Considering there was 2 156's coupled up running in the other direction and I also saw about 6 156's in a siding I feel like Scotrail could at least provide a 4 carriage service on Sunday's when there is clearly spare stock. I presume staffing would be the issue.

However I thoroughly agree that based on my observations the line could clearly do with a frequency increase.
 

Starmill

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"lack of interest" is an interesting one. There has been a significant increase in the number of services between Carlisle and Dumfries, there are five additional class 156 DMUs in the fleet (which serves a wider area, but these units are what is available for this line) and there is now onboard catering available on some services. All units are being refurbished to include WiFi, at seat charging and replacement seating. All of thise things cost money and Transport Scotland have paid up. Bear in mind thst the line runs through mostly rural areas and serves very low population indeed between Kilmarnock and Dumfries. Limited end-to-end traffic will ever use the route. Almost all of the demand lies to and from either Glasgow or Carlisle so this is where resources have been targeted.

But apparently there's no interest at all? :rolleyes:
 

Starmill

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Northern should step in and provide a Carlisle - Dumfries shuttle.
Why? There are 18 services Monday to Saturday from Dumfries to Carlisle. Is that so poor? Transport Scotland wouldn't allow Northern to run more services even if they wanted to, and there is no way they would want to.
 

Starmill

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Everywhere else in the country the old Sunday lack of service has been removed but it still seems to hold out strongly in this area. Even a morning Dumfries to Glasgow Central and a Glasgow Central to Carlisle to balance would be a strong improvement.
There's still no Sunday service elsewhere in Scotland. There's no service from Coatbridge Central, because there are no Motherwell to Cumbernauld services, and no services between Cumbernauld and Falkirk.

I would look at enhancing the Strathclyde electrics before dealing with signal box opening hours on the Glasgow & South Western if it were me.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Why? There are 18 services Monday to Saturday from Dumfries to Carlisle. Is that so poor? Transport Scotland wouldn't allow Northern to run more services even if they wanted to, and there is no way they would want to.

It may be the Sunday service that was being referred to, rather than the Monday to Saturday service.

Although getting Northern to run these possible Sunday shuttles may be problematic at this moment in time, bearing in mind that they are or have been having difficulty with Sunday staffing on their normal routes in recent times.
 

snookertam

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Surely it's despite the lack of interest of Transport Scotland? Most if not all the improvements that have appeared elsewhere in Scotland have mostly been lead by the specification that TS issued for the Scotrail franchise last time around.

This is probably the main reason for the lack of service. If TS made ScotRail and Network Rail look at it again then they would.
 

snookertam

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Northern should step in and provide a Carlisle - Dumfries shuttle.

As previously stated, the Carlisle to Dumfries service is pretty good. Their rolling stock and drivers already work to Dumfries on behalf of ScotRail, however I think they have their own problems to seek before trying to expand their own service into Scotland.
 

Donachie

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Thanks for reply.
So section becomes Holywood to Kilmarnock and northbound trains from Dumfries can still run ?
 

LOM

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The block sections north of Dumfries on a Sunday are Holywood to New Cumnock (opens at 12:00) New Cumnock to Mauchline (opens at 07:00) and Mauchline to Kilmarnock. Dumfries and Annan are open continuous. Holywood to New Cumnock is a 35 minute section for passenger trains so that severely limits what traffic can run.
 

Donachie

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Thanks again for reply Lom.

So as Holywood is open 24hrs and Mauchline at 07:00 ,its not a signaling issue that prevents a passenger service leaving Dumfries northbound before 13:xx on a Sunday??
Or Holywood to Mauchline doses not work as a section.....
 

InOban

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It would not surprise me if that lunchtime Sunday train is the busiest of the week, certainly off season. Certainly the 12.11 from Oban on a Sunday, is, at this time of year, the busiest train as there is a lot of weekend traffic and people like to return to college, or their workplace, during the day. (I'm always trying to persuade NR that a Sunday is the wrong day for engineering. They would be better having a longer possession midweek.)
The report above that his train from Carlisle emptied at Dumfries confirms my suspicion that most traffic is between there and Carlisle.
 

xotGD

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Why? There are 18 services Monday to Saturday from Dumfries to Carlisle. Is that so poor? Transport Scotland wouldn't allow Northern to run more services even if they wanted to, and there is no way they would want to.
I'd assumed that the service was a lot worse than that, going by the earlier posts.

I therefore withdraw my suggestion.
 

route101

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Is Scotrail still providing catering on these routes from Glasgow Central (Though i heard the trollies and stock come from Queen St).?

I thought they wanted 170s on this line , but dont think thats happening now.
 
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