It might still be worth emailing them perhaps on the matter?
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Transport Investigations taking me to court *settled*
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The high risk strategy, I suppose, would be to produce in court an extract from some National Rail source showing that there are no trains from Egham to Cardiff Central and certainly no Transport for Wales trains. But that really would be a solicitor matter.
I would be very very wary of relying on technicalities without seeking the advice and, I'd suggest, the active support of a legal professional.
swj99
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I'd tend to agree there. After all, if you use a solicitor and you are either found not guilty or the case is dropped on the day, you'd probably be entitled to ask for your legal costs to be paid by the prosecution.
If the prosecution statement is incorrect, then the evidence is flawed, so I think you would be entitled to ask for the case to be discontinued. Whether this happens is a matter for the prosecutor or the magistrates. But basically, if you are alleged to have done a certain thing in a certain way, and you didn't, then why should you be found guilty of it ? It is for the prosecution to accurately put the facts before the court. If they cannot do this, I'd say you're entitled to be aquitted.
Incorrect if TFW do not operate a service on the route you took
Incorrect. You did previously pay the fare.
Incorrect. There was no intent to avoid payment, and for you to be found guilty, it is for the prosecution to prove that you did intend to avoid payment.
WesternLancer
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Not only high risk, but you might well have to show (proove?) that you didn't use a TfW train on part of the route - which in theory could have been done eg between Newport and Cradiff for example - as they operate some of the route as shown on Barry Doe's operator map.
https://www.barrydoe.co.uk/railmap44.pdf
Unfortunately, I won't have a solicitor. I am however getting legal advice next week so I will see what they suggest.
I am unsure of how to proceed now- should I send an email stating that their evidence is incorrect? Would the matter be discontinued that way?
Or should I wait till court and plead guilty but try and prove that their statement is incorrect?
Or would I plead not guilty and prove that they are incorrect?
Obviously there is the possibility of speaking to the prosecutor before the case is called too.
Any advice on which way to proceed would be grateful as the case is in less than two weeks.
I am unsure of how to proceed now- should I send an email stating that their evidence is incorrect? Would the matter be discontinued that way?
Or should I wait till court and plead guilty but try and prove that their statement is incorrect?
Or would I plead not guilty and prove that they are incorrect?
Obviously there is the possibility of speaking to the prosecutor before the case is called too.
Any advice on which way to proceed would be grateful as the case is in less than two weeks.
swj99
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Probably best to get some legal advice before contacting the prosecution or deciding what to do. There's a risk you could prejudice your case if you say something before getting the advice.
http://www.grayhooperholt.co.uk/default.asp?id=25
https://www.bsbsolicitors.co.uk/areas-of-law/fare-evasion-solicitors/
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/co...ce-fuels-online-justice-fears/5069381.article
http://www.grayhooperholt.co.uk/default.asp?id=25
https://www.bsbsolicitors.co.uk/areas-of-law/fare-evasion-solicitors/
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/co...ce-fuels-online-justice-fears/5069381.article
https://www.release.org.uk/what-happens-in-court
Many firms will offer a free initial consultation or a free half-hour of advice which would be worth taking advantage of even if you cannot afford to instruct a solicitor to run the case for you.
I hope that you are taking legal advice from a Solicitor who is well versed in criminal matters and preferably one who is experienced in understanding the matter of railway law
Only if you are able produce clear evidence that is strong enough to convince the prosecutor that their case is flawed
You cannot plead guilty to an offence and say I didn't do it. That will be considered an equivocal plea and a Court would direct you to enter a not guilty plea in those circumstances
If you are not guilty then that is the plea that you should enter at the first hearing to which you are summonsed. The case will then normally be adjourned to trial at a later date
Yes, that may be your best option if you have not used a Solicitor to obtain an out of Court settlement beforehand.
I agree with swj99.
Although many people will say that they have successfully defended themselves and it does occasionally happen, but you can also seriously damage your chances of a good outcome by saying anything without proper advice. Attending Court and asking to speak with the Duty Solicitor is a very good idea. That will be a short consultation that is free of charge. Although fare evasion matters do not normally attract legal aid (unless a defendant has a poor criminal record) if s/he thinks that you have a very strong case for acquittal, some duty solicitors have been known to represent pro-bono
I may be wrong, but I don't believe it is the remit of this forum to advertise any particular law firm to the exclusion of others, although I can say from long experience that those links provided by swj99 are reputable firms
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Haywain
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It has been mentioned previously on the forum that minor errors can be changed in court on the day, so I would tentatively suggest that relying on the wrong TOC being named may not prove a good defence.
Yes, it's not uncommon to correct minor details by verbal application to amend.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I would wait until you see what your legal advisor says.
As above, plus I would suggest that comments like that would only antagonise the situation.
If you plead guilty then there will be no option for you to question anyone in Court.
Again I refer you to your legal advisor
As you have said that you are receiving legal advice then I would do what they say.
Is it £38 + £80 'penalty' fare?
I believe that, at the time of the alleged offence, £118 was the Standard Anytime walk-up fare.
Your original post reads:
On that basis the allegation would appear to be that;
i) you travelled without a valid ticket because you had refunded to yourself the fare you had previously paid for that journey. No fare has therefore been paid
and
ii) that your action constituted an attempt to avoid the whole fare due.
I think that’s probably the view that they have taken and is why they are proceeding
Your original post reads:
On that basis the allegation would appear to be that;
i) you travelled without a valid ticket because you had refunded to yourself the fare you had previously paid for that journey. No fare has therefore been paid
and
ii) that your action constituted an attempt to avoid the whole fare due.
I think that’s probably the view that they have taken and is why they are proceeding
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I spoke to two law firms this morning who both seemed to imply that pleading not guilty would be more damaging as TIL already hold the facts that I did not have a valid ticket. They said that their solicitors are able to send a letter persuading them to not take the case to court, but is that hefty fee really worth it if TIL come back and say no?
I am receiving more legal advice next week so I'll see what they say too.
I am receiving more legal advice next week so I'll see what they say too.
This will be because those Solicitors appear to be basing their advice on the principle that the prosecution have sufficient evidence to prove their case and you pleading ‘not guilty’ will mean that you will lose any credit against the penalty if you are convicted
I see. In the circumstances that TIL have provided incorrect evidence would it be more advised to plea 'not guilty'?
I am also considering writing to TIL again offering to pay a greater sum than the proposed amount in the summons (as well as reiterating that conviction would be damaging to my future). Would anyone recommend this?
Hi all, this morning has taken a turn for the good! I received a letter in the post saying that the case will be discontinued if I pay £368- I immediately paid it via their phone line. The prosecutor could see that I had no previous convictions and that the conviction would have a detrimental effect on my future. I am beyond relieved that I will not have to worry about receiving a criminal record. Never again will I be silly enough to make any errors on future railway journeys! I want to thank you all for your help and time, you have all proved extremely useful and provided much insight for me throughout this awful time in my life.
gray1404
Established Member
Glad you got a good outcome. Out of interest who offered this Out of Court Settlement? Was it a letter from TfW or TIL? I wonder what prompted this letter... your legal representative reaching out to them or a letter you had sent in recently.
So as to cover all basis, do keep hold of the letter offering the out of court settlement, any recording of the phone call you might have taken when making the payment on the phone (if you did this) and your bank statement showing you making payment as proof. I would also recommend, as you have received a summons already, personally contacting the Clark of the Court to confirm that you case is so longer listed and that it still won't be called.
So as to cover all basis, do keep hold of the letter offering the out of court settlement, any recording of the phone call you might have taken when making the payment on the phone (if you did this) and your bank statement showing you making payment as proof. I would also recommend, as you have received a summons already, personally contacting the Clark of the Court to confirm that you case is so longer listed and that it still won't be called.
The settlement was offered by the company prosecutor for TIL. TFW have no involvement in TIL cases anymore. No legal representative reached out to them- it appears they just reassessed my case and looked at the most recent letter I sent.
I shall be confirming that the case is no longer listed.
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gray1404
Established Member
Thanks for reporting back. Glad to see there is a tiny bit of common sense being applied at TIL and someone thought to review your case. They would have saved themselves some money if they had have done this and offered a settlement before issuing a Summons. I hope TfW have updated their Revenue Protection Policy and published to reflect the new procedures if indeed cases are no longer sent back to them for final decision before a case proceeds to Court.
Glad you got a good outcome!
Glad you got a good outcome!
WesternLancer
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It is still of concern that a delayed train causes a passenger who may not understand the nature of ticket validity to think they need to change an e-ticket that then results in them refunding it in some sort of error, ending up in this situation with a v costly outcome.
It strikes me that much of this would not have happened with a paper ticket...
It strikes me that much of this would not have happened with a paper ticket...
Brissle Girl
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Indeed, we’ve seen too many instances of e-tickets tripping honest people up in various ways whether regular or occasional travellers. And for every one we see there will no doubt be countless others who haven’t sought out this forum for advice. So for me, paper is still safest.
Haywain
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What is it about paper tickets that makes you think those same people don’t just buy a new paper ticket?
WesternLancer
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Well they might - but the process of that (and the refund request) would have much slimmer chance of ending up paying £300+ to 'solve'
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They might well do, but they'd go to the ticket office or TVM to do it and would still have the existing one until they sent it off for a refund.
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