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Visiting "evil" places

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Calthrop

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Prompted by a post on another railway-oriented Net site: the poster was telling of wonderful experiences of his, with steam in South Africa in the 1970s; and waxing rather penitent, "over forty years on", about his, by visiting and and enjoying the country, having supported the then Apartheid regime. He went on to say that he did similarly, with other oppressive countries -- "Right, Left, and whatever" -- which had good steam -- "held his nose and went anyway"; wonders now, whether he was by doing thus, colluding with evil.

As often, I can see various points of view. (1) -- you're helping the villains financially; and by sending the implied message that you're OK with their horrible regime. (2) -- when there: you can meet, to some extent, the country's ordinary people -- engage with them, hear the point of view of the oppressed (indicate to them that people elsewhere, sympathise with them and support their cause), and the oppressors (suggest tactfully, that they might have things wrong). (3) -- you're just there for the steam (or whatever, in a world now virtually without "real" steam), to hell with everything else -- hopefully you'll behave decently to people you individually meet, whether they're "underdog" or "overdog"; but basically, "not your circus, not your monkeys".

I rank with no. 3 above, and have done thus in my past times of railwaying abroad -- essential feeling for me, of "this world is full of evil and wickedness, but few of us are all-good or all-bad -- deal with it (and don't make too big a deal of it)".

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this issue.
 
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Busaholic

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So would the poster referred to have been okay with visiting Germany 'for the steam' just before war was declared in 1939, or travel on the Trans-Siberian Railway at the time when Stalin was depositing Russian citizens in its salt mines, never to be seen again? Just asking the question - at what point to these matters become your concern? I don't have a pat answer, by the way, we must all act as we see fit. I'd say, though, in response to question (1) that it was certainly because sufficient numbers of people boycotted South Africa, refused to buy its produce and protested politically that brought President de Klerk to the conclusion that Apartheid was iniquitous and had to go.
 

Calthrop

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Actually I'm wont to declare, partly in jest, that I'm such a callous so-and-so, that I would have, in the late 1930s, happily gone "railwaying" to Hitler's Germany or Stalin's USSR, in full knowledge of the very worst that was going on there (subject to my being guaranteed immunity from getting into trouble with the authorities as a suspected spy).* If I am indeed callous in this way: it's a function of my not "doing" current affairs -- stuff in which I find little interest; and the incessant force-feeding of the populace with which, by the news media, irritates me. There are many other things in the world, besides politics and current affairs; and I consider it legitimate to pay little attention to those just-mentioned matters, in favour of other material which one finds more congenial. (Acknowledging -- if one takes this course -- that should things go badly with one's nation or community, one has not much of a right to whinge about it.)

* I think that even I would have balked at Khmer Rouge Cambodia; anyway, if I have things rightly, the regime there considered that railways -- even steam-worked ones -- were bad, and a divergence from the path to true and pure socialism: while those guys were in charge, all services on the country's rail system were suspended.
 
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gordonthemoron

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It depends, I wouldn't have gone to SA, but I will go to Myanmar when time allows and I would go to China if her indoors would stop complaining about the PRC, she's from Hong Kong. I did go to East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and USSR in the 80s, and at least in Czech, Hungary and to a lesser extent USSR I engaged with the locals who were a friendly bunch and were genuinely pleased that people from the west wanted to visit their countries. This did not happen in East Berlin as the place seemed to be deserted, summer holidays perhaps.

I dould definitely not have gone to Kampuchea during Pol Pot's murderous regime but it seems nice now and Vietnam was fine in 2018. These days it's more a question of safety, see PRC, although I have visited Turkish Kurdistan 8 years ago and again the locals were great.
 

Calthrop

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I have the impression that for many people this can vary according to their politics, if any. I seem to recall that before the 1990s, some folk on the right-wing side of the political spectrum found it irritating that South Africa got a great volume of constant lambasting from people who cared about what was going on there; but were seen as tending to give a free pass to the part of the planet where held sway, Communist regimes which in their different way, were at least as wicked and oppressive. I suspect that the particular, and pretty much unique, perceived awfulness of South Africa and some of its neighbours, was the set-up with racial inequality on a systematic basis. At least in Communist states, getting-on-for everyone was, impartially, badly treated !

In the 1980s I developed a strong interest in steam in Poland -- then the country with by far the largest amount of genuine everyday working steam, in Europe -- and made several visits there in the last decade of Communism. I found the people in the main friendly, welcoming, and glad to be visited by a Westerner; but (to my surprise) characterised by a certain amount of reserve. In truth, I found that a blessing: not being perpetually chatted-up by chance-met folk, allowed guilt-free concentration on observing the rail scene. I made one trip to what was then Czechoslovakia (as it panned out, just too late for steam, but interesting anyway). Impression received there, was that the Czechs were a particularly outgoing-and-interacting people: self and companion were approached by very many chance-encountered locals who were eager to talk with us about all manner of things; a fair few, did not allow the total lack of a language in common, to stop them ! Some people have a knack of achieving quite a high degree of communication, in the absence of a shared language; unfortunately I do not have that talent. One feels like a heel if one tries to keep such people, a bit at arm's length -- when one is a guest in their country, and of a kind which they seldom meet in their daily lives -- but when doing railway stuff abroad, I'm afraid I'm more eager to concentrate on what's going on around me, than to engage in laborious conversation, however stimulating.
 

DarloRich

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Actually I'm wont to declare, partly in jest, that I'm such a callous so-and-so, that I would have, in the late 1930s, happily gone "railwaying" to Hitler's Germany or Stalin's USSR, in full knowledge of the very worst that was going on there (subject to my being guaranteed immunity from getting into trouble with the authorities as a suspected spy).* If I am indeed callous in this way: it's a function of my not "doing" current affairs -- stuff in which I find little interest; and the incessant force-feeding of the populace with which, by the news media, irritates me. There are many other things in the world, besides politics and current affairs; and I consider it legitimate to pay little attention to those just-mentioned matters, in favour of other material which one finds more congenial. (Acknowledging -- if one takes this course -- that should things go badly with one's nation or community, one has not much of a right to whinge about it.)

* I think that even I would have balked at Khmer Rouge Cambodia; anyway, if I have things rightly, the regime there considered that railways -- even steam-worked ones -- were bad, and a divergence from the path to true and pure socialism: while those guys were in charge, all services on the country's rail system were suspended.

That is moral cowardice in my book. You seem happy to give a free pass to horrible regimes encouraging them to behave as they wish because people like you will turn a blind eye to their abuses and offer that regime legitimacy by visiting in a controlled fashion returning a less than truthful picture of the conditions within that country. However it is all OK ( yes even the shooting,torture and disappearances) as long as they run good trains.

It is simply "trainwashing" and it stinks.
 

DarloRich

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The ordinary people are usually ordinary people not part of the regime. Going there will generally benefit them rather than the Government.

How do you work that out? Lets encourage the regime that is oppressing the normal people to continue doing so by giving them exposure and hard currency. Sweet.

There are stories of normal people being questioned by the local secret police for daring to be talked to by a foreigner!
 

gordonthemoron

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How do you work that out? Lets encourage the regime that is oppressing the normal people to continue doing so by giving them exposure and hard currency. Sweet.

There are stories of normal people being questioned by the local secret police for daring to be talked to by a foreigner!

I'm sure the locals take that into consideration. Which is why DDR and USSR locals were less keen to to talk to foreigners
 

433N

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I dould definitely not have gone to Kampuchea during Pol Pot's murderous regime but it seems nice now and Vietnam was fine in 2018.

I struggle to understand why you consider Vietnam worthy of sitting in the same sentence as Kampuchea. They fought a war for independence against the French and then the Americuns and liberated Kampuchea from the Khmer Rouge ... was that 'evil' ?
 

gordonthemoron

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I struggle to understand why you consider Vietnam worthy of sitting in the same sentence as Kampuchea. They fought a war for independence against the French and then the Americuns and liberated Kampuchea from the Khmer Rouge ... was that 'evil' ?

no, it's just communist, which some people think is evil
 

Calthrop

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That is moral cowardice in my book. You seem happy to give a free pass to horrible regimes encouraging them to behave as they wish because people like you will turn a blind eye to their abuses and offer that regime legitimacy by visiting in a controlled fashion returning a less than truthful picture of the conditions within that country. However it is all OK ( yes even the shooting,torture and disappearances) as long as they run good trains.

It is simply "trainwashing" and it stinks.

I shouldn't expect to be on your Christmas card list, then :s ?

I indulged in that post, in a bit of hyperbole; but IMO we are a highly flawed species, and do awful stuff to each other in a great variety of ways. It's a matter to a fair extent, of what one chooses to focus on -- it would be quite possible to "spin" things so as to make out the most humane, enlightened, democratically-run country on the planet, to be hell on earth. As I mentioned in the post concerned: there are a lot of other aspects to mankind and the world, other than politics and government -- I don't see it as compulsory; or obligatory if one wishes to be considered as a decent person; to make politics and government, "the good, the not-so-good, and the awful", the measure of all things, and the determining factor of one's opinions and actions vis-a-vis a particular nation. Other than in calamitously "failed states" or those where a situation of outright war obtains; I perceive the majority of the inhabitants of any country, as doing their best, largely successfully, to lead their lives and simply "get by". We have the right to our respective points of view; on this matter, yours and mine would appear to differ greatly.
 

Meerkat

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I believe visiting such places legitimises the government and gives them foreign currency, so I wouldn’t go.
Being shunned does make a difference, even the true believers will often temper their misbehaviour because of the practical need to protect revenues (about time holidaymakers boycotted Turkey....)
For the harshest regimes you probably aren’t benefitting the ‘ordinary’ folk. The regime will cream off the money, harass the locals into compliance, then portray your visit as an endorsement.
 

DarloRich

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I shouldn't expect to be on your Christmas card list, then :s ?

I indulged in that post, in a bit of hyperbole; but IMO we are a highly flawed species, and do awful stuff to each other in a great variety of ways. It's a matter to a fair extent, of what one chooses to focus on -- it would be quite possible to "spin" things so as to make out the most humane, enlightened, democratically-run country on the planet, to be hell on earth. As I mentioned in the post concerned: there are a lot of other aspects to mankind and the world, other than politics and government -- I don't see it as compulsory; or obligatory if one wishes to be considered as a decent person; to make politics and government, "the good, the not-so-good, and the awful", the measure of all things, and the determining factor of one's opinions and actions vis-a-vis a particular nation. Other than in calamitously "failed states" or those where a situation of outright war obtains; I perceive the majority of the inhabitants of any country, as doing their best, largely successfully, to lead their lives and simply "get by". We have the right to our respective points of view; on this matter, yours and mine would appear to differ greatly.

You are welcome to justify it under whatever framework you wish. If the regime you want to visit isnt democratic, undertakes flagrant abuses of human rights, tortures and is generally a bad egg then going justifies that regieme. Thinking the normal people are just trying to get by is naive in the extreme. Who do you think is grassing their neighbour or family member or business rival to the secret police ?

You are, of course, entitled to express your opinion. Sadly many of the people living in the countries you would visit are denied that right and every person, like you, who turns a blind eye to such flagrant abuses, makes the day they can freely express their opinion further away.

It isnt compulsory to be interested in politics or current affairs. I think it is compulsory not to be naive and credulous.
 

Bevan Price

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I visited East Germany, Poland, Hungary and former Yugoslavia when they were communist, and was only interesting in seeing - and photographing (when allowed) trains (mainly steam). At that time, a few tourist visitors was never going to change the political situation. Indeed for many practical purposes they could be regarded almost as colonies of the former USSR, from which they probably received funds.

East Germany, particularly on my second trip felt a bit frightening, especially after I was stopped by what I assume were a couple of STASI thugs - whilst just walking past shops inside a station (with camera intentionally left in the hotel) - and who laughed when I tried to explain that I did not speak German; they only let me go when I produced my "hotel card" (The hotel retained passports of people staying there.)

In Poland, I felt sorry for the local people - all the shops seemed to be almost empty of anything to buy. In both countries, most of the local population seemed reluctant to be seen anywhere near we "foreigners", although in East German restaurants, I gathered that we often got better service than any Russians -- perhaps the only way some of the locals could show dislike of the occupying Russians.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I'm sure the locals take that into consideration. Which is why DDR and USSR locals were less keen to to talk to foreigners

I'm sure that's the case; there's a very vivid description of what things were like, including for locals and the risks they ran in talking to foreigners in the USSR in a book called "Nyet!" by the American jazz musician Thomas Gambino.

It appears to be out of print but secondhand copies do seem to be available every now and again, usually on Amazon. Having read it myself I would thoroughly recommend it as a means of learning more about how things were run. It's a first hand account of a tour his band made behind the Iron Curtain and it goes into some detail but without being in any way tedious; it's not heavy going either.
 

sprunt

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The one that really mystifies me is the 'holidays' that some people go on to North Korea. Aside from the morality - not one penny of what you spend there will find its way into the pockets of any of the general population - where is the fun in being told where you can go, and how you must react by a government guide?
 

Calthrop

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The one that really mystifies me is the 'holidays' that some people go on to North Korea. Aside from the morality - not one penny of what you spend there will find its way into the pockets of any of the general population - where is the fun in being told where you can go, and how you must react by a government guide?

No -- I won't get myself into any deeper hole-digging ;) . (And, per my understanding: rough and backward though things are in NK for everyone except the elite, the country no longer uses regular-service steam.)
 

61653 HTAFC

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Does anyone really believe that a handful of enthusiasts refusing to travel to a country and riding their rails because they disapprove of that country's regime, would actually have any impact on said regime or their policies?

Wider boycotts did eventually perhaps have an impact on the Apartheid regime, and may have contributed to the eventual change to the system in South Africa... but I don't think rail enthusiasts can claim victory there. Tourist-shaming 40 years later is a bit crass to be honest, as well as being a rather hollow virtue-signal.
 

sprunt

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Just to point out that the Nazi's weren't seen as bad before the war. Hitler won Time Person of the Year in 1938.

Time Person of the Year isn't an endorsement - it is awarded to the person that "for better or for worse... has done the most to influence the events of the year". Whilst it's certainly true that plenty of people tuned a blind eye for various reasons, there were plenty that objected to the Nazis, and Chamberlain's appeasement was widely derided.
 

Calthrop

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Just to point out that the Nazi's weren't seen as bad before the war. Hitler won Time Person of the Year in 1938.

Time Person of the Year isn't an endorsement - it is awarded to the person that "for better or for worse... has done the most to influence the events of the year".

As has been written about another historical figure from some centuries earlier, regarded by many as a villain big-time; "He may not have made friends, but he certainly influenced people".
 

Samuel88

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Actually I'm wont to declare, partly in jest, that I'm such a callous so-and-so, that I would have, in the late 1930s, happily gone "railwaying" to Hitler's Germany or Stalin's USSR, in full knowledge of the very worst that was going on there (subject to my being guaranteed immunity from getting into trouble with the authorities as a suspected spy).* If I am indeed callous in this way: it's a function of my not "doing" current affairs -- stuff in which I find little interest; and the incessant force-feeding of the populace with which, by the news media, irritates me. There are many other things in the world, besides politics and current affairs; and I consider it legitimate to pay little attention to those just-mentioned matters, in favour of other material which one finds more congenial. (Acknowledging -- if one takes this course -- that should things go badly with one's nation or community, one has not much of a right to whinge about it.)

* I think that even I would have balked at Khmer Rouge Cambodia; anyway, if I have things rightly, the regime there considered that railways -- even steam-worked ones -- were bad, and a divergence from the path to true and pure socialism: while those guys were in charge, all services on the country's rail system were suspended.

So you would have been happy travelling around Nazi era Germany in the full knowledge that the railways were central in the transportation of millions to the camps? In fact later in the war maybe the very train in which you are touring Germany may have moved people to Auschwitz?
 

Calthrop

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So you would have been happy travelling around Nazi era Germany in the full knowledge that the railways were central in the transportation of millions to the camps? In fact later in the war maybe the very train in which you are touring Germany may have moved people to Auschwitz?

I've already said my piece here, upthread, and been lambasted for it. Am not going to revisit this particular thing.
 

heart-of-wessex

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East Germany, particularly on my second trip felt a bit frightening, especially after I was stopped by what I assume were a couple of STASI thugs - whilst just walking past shops inside a station (with camera intentionally left in the hotel) - and who laughed when I tried to explain that I did not speak German; they only let me go when I produced my "hotel card" (The hotel retained passports of people staying there.)

In Poland, I felt sorry for the local people - all the shops seemed to be almost empty of anything to buy. In both countries, most of the local population seemed reluctant to be seen anywhere near we "foreigners", although in East German restaurants, I gathered that we often got better service than any Russians -- perhaps the only way some of the locals could show dislike of the occupying Russians.

Blimey! What year was that out of interest? Not that scratched up on the history what is STASTI thugs? Is that similar to the Gestapo?
 

Samuel88

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Blimey! What year was that out of interest? Not that scratched up on the history what is STASTI thugs? Is that similar to the Gestapo?
The Stasi were the East German secret police, similar to the Gestapo only there were far more Stasi about than Gestapo...
(The Gestapo had about 10,000 whilst the Stasi had ten times that number)
 

C J Snarzell

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Closer to home - Saddleworth Moor is one evil place. It's 50 odd years since them two evil monsters Hindley & Brady brought their rein of terror to the North of England but Saddleworth will be forever tainted by their wicked deeds. I've been up on Saddleworth Moor a couple of times over the years with the dog. In the summer on a warm day it is quite scenic and tranquil, but on a cold over cast day it is one of the most eary places to be.

CJ
 

Meerkat

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Does anyone really believe that a handful of enthusiasts refusing to travel to a country and riding their rails because they disapprove of that country's regime, would actually have any impact on said regime or their policies?

It all makes a difference. “No one visits here because of our government” is undermined by anyone visiting.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It all makes a difference. “No one visits here because of our government” is undermined by anyone visiting.
Has any government ever been toppled because of the effects of their policies on tourism though? Boycotts never get 100% participation anyway, and they'd need to in order to have any effect.
 
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