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Which XC diagrams could accommodate double Voyagers?

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py_megapixel

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I'm interested to know if there are any constraints (platform lengths, stabling space etc.) that would prevent CrossCountry from running 8/9/10-car Voyager formations on their long distance services (Scotland to the South West, Manchester to Bristol/Bournemouth and Newcastle to Reading), assuming that the rolling stock was available. (I appreciate that it may well not be).

Moderators, feel free to move this if it's posted in the wrong place!
 
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SeanG

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I am not sure about platform lengths further south, but the Newcastle terminators seem to use the bay platforms - 9 to 12 - which I doubt would accommodate a double unit
 

Fleetwood Boy

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I am not sure about platform lengths further south, but the Newcastle terminators seem to use the bay platforms - 9 to 12 - which I doubt would accommodate a double unit
Although in the past HSTs terminated into P1 at Newcastle - but has it been shortened since then, can't visualise what it looks like now.
 

swt_passenger

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Although in the past HSTs terminated into P1 at Newcastle - but has it been shortened since then, can't visualise what it looks like now.
It’s only 161m in the sectional appendix.
The west end bays are all ok for a 4 car Voyager, but surprisingly none of them are apparently long enough for a 5 car, P10 is shown to be the longest at just 114m. Does anyone know for sure if 5 cars do run into the bays in practice?
 

Ianno87

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Trains reversing at Reading are length-limited if they use Platforms 1-3.
 

JonathanH

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I reckon some of the obvious ones are:

* Newcastle bays
* Chester-le-Street (although I'm not sure it is necessary for XC to stop here)
* Doncaster platform 3B (although the trains can use platform 4 and 8 southbound)
* Birmingham New Street east end (eg platform 10A)
* Reading platform 3 / west ends of platforms 13 / 14
* Exeter St Davids platform 2
* Manchester Piccadilly (assuming double platforming with local trains)
 

JonathanH

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Trains reversing at Reading are length-limited if thet use Platforms 1-3.

Trains reversing at Reading don't use platforms 1 and 2 as they only go to and from Reading West. Reading is one of the more difficult locations for lengthening XC trains - however terminators can run on to Kennet Bridge Loop. The reversals typically take about 8-10 minutes.
 
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I believe every station that voyagers serve is also served by 8+ coach trains other than Tamworth (high level), and Leamington Spa (not sure about Banbury). Most have ten coach trains. While this doesn’t necessarily mean all voyagers could suddenly be 8 coaches (assuming rolling stock was available) it would also suggest that it wouldn’t be too difficult, certainly compared to many routes. There is also the option to have more double services over the core part and drop a unit at the extremities (as some services already do).
 

trentvalley

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I believe every station that voyagers serve is also served by 8+ coach trains other than Tamworth (high level), and Leamington Spa (not sure about Banbury). Most have ten coach trains. While this doesn’t necessarily mean all voyagers could suddenly be 8 coaches (assuming rolling stock was available) it would also suggest that it wouldn’t be too difficult, certainly compared to many routes. There is also the option to have more double services over the core part and drop a unit at the extremities (as some services already do).

Don’t the HSTs serve Tamworth HL so there’s your 8 + there
 

swt_passenger

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Trains reversing at Reading don't use platforms 1 and 2 as they only go to and from Reading West. Reading is one of the more difficult locations for lengthening XC trains - however terminators can run on to Kennet Bridge Loop. The reversals typically take about 8-10 minutes.
I don’t think it would actually be that difficult. A significant majority of reversals still take place in the long through platforms, P3 seems now to be used more for the terminating trains laying over, previously they often used P13 or P14, but I expect 7 car 345 operations have changed that.

I just noticed On RTT a few afternoon and evening terminators do spend time in Kennet Bridge Loop, perhaps they should all day? I wonder if in extremis they could hide them in the depot?

(Of course I wonder if the best solution to any Reading terminator problems might be to run them all to Southampton, if or when paths and stock become available...)
 

JonathanH

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I believe every station that voyagers serve is also served by 8+ coach trains other than Tamworth (high level), and Leamington Spa (not sure about Banbury). Most have ten coach trains. While this doesn’t necessarily mean all voyagers could suddenly be 8 coaches (assuming rolling stock was available) it would also suggest that it wouldn’t be too difficult, certainly compared to many routes. There is also the option to have more double services over the core part and drop a unit at the extremities (as some services already do).

That doesn't mean that every platform Voyagers serve is also served by 8+ coach trains - some timetabling changes, however minor, would be needed for all XC services to have 8 cars.
 

Rich McLean

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Don’t the HSTs serve Tamworth HL so there’s your 8 + there

HSTs have SDO, and Voyagers do not have SDO (fitted but never been operational), so its a moot point. Double voyager formations have called there.

The major issue is Birmingham New Street, as often platforms are occupied at either end, and a vast increase of trains using the full platform length will cause capacity issues.
 

JonathanH

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I wonder if in extremis they could hide them in the depot?

I doubt XC traincrew sign the depot - Kennet Bridge Loop should be sufficient. However, a few trains from the London direction at Reading (not XC) reverse west of the station at Signal T1732 on the loop.
 

swt_passenger

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I doubt XC traincrew sign the depot - Kennet Bridge Loop should be sufficient. However, a few trains from the London direction at Reading (not XC) reverse west of the station at Signal T1732 on the loop.
Quite probably, but I don’t think it would be that difficult to add the knowledge. I expect they didn’t ever sign Totton Yard until they suddenly needed to...
 

Eloise

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Newcastle 9 - 12 are max 4-car. 5 don't fit, they have been in but you can't set the route back out. One turns up on the day and you replatform. Tamworth HL takes 2x5 car. Seen a booked work on Platform 3B at Doncaster from York direction with the back set locked out of use.
 

Grecian 1998

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I'm interested to know if there are any constraints (platform lengths, stabling space etc.) that would prevent CrossCountry from running 8/9/10-car Voyager formations on their long distance services (Scotland to the South West, Manchester to Bristol/Bournemouth and Newcastle to Reading), assuming that the rolling stock was available. (I appreciate that it may well not be).

Moderators, feel free to move this if it's posted in the wrong place!


I think I've read on here before that 10 car Voyager formations have to run with the back carriage locked out - 9 is the maximum, so XC try to avoid more than this. 8 and 5 carriages makes more sense than 9 and 4 anyway, given XC's very finite resources.

The SW-Scotland route is the only one with HSTs and the route with the most Voyager formations. Given engineering works can cause trains to get out of their usual paths at the weekend, I assume most trains on these services could be formed of double Voyagers if required, given that most routes operate a standard hourly pattern these days, so if it can be done one hour, it should be feasible in another hour.

I think one Bournemouth-Manchester service is a double Voyager so again presumably a number of them could be if required. However Reading and Birmingham New Street seem likely to be the bigger problems.

Exeter/Bristol - Manchester would potentially be hampered by New Street (where services not using the Camp Hill chord have to reverse), by the fact some services share platforms with Northern services at Manchester Piccadilly, and some services use platform 2 at Exeter St Davids which can only take 4 cars.

Southampton/Reading - Newcastle requires a reversal/parking at Reading and another reversal at New Street. Reversing longer services may add dwell time if it takes the driver longer to change ends. If there's a lack of space in several platforms at Newcastle for terminating services, longer services would eat up a lot of platform capacity and these seem the least likely services to run doubled up.

XC seem to prioritise the routes in that order so if they did have enough stock to run more doubled-up services, SW-Scotland seems most likely to benefit and Reading-Newcastle least likely in any case. That would roughly seem to fit in with the available infrastructure issues in any case.
 

cuccir

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It’s only 161m in the sectional appendix.
The west end bays are all ok for a 4 car Voyager, but surprisingly none of them are apparently long enough for a 5 car, P10 is shown to be the longest at just 114m. Does anyone know for sure if 5 cars do run into the bays in practice?

My regular morning commute is booked for a 4 car Voyager into P12. When on occasion a 5 car shows up, it has to use a different platform.
 

Freemo

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I think I've read on here before that 10 car Voyager formations have to run with the back carriage locked out - 9 is the maximum, so XC try to avoid more than this.

I seem to recall that Chesterfield can only take 9 going in one direction, not sure if there are other stations and what happens with 10 car EMR formations there.
 

XC victim

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I travelled on an 8 car service from Newcastle to Reading one Sunday a couple of months ago. The four car unit I was in was overcrowded and had people standing, but I was in the reserved coaches A - F so the other unit may have been quite quiet.

I have never known an 8 car unit on this route before so I don’t know if it was just a one off.

interestingly at Doncaster it used platform 3B, I really didn’t believe you could get an 8 car service in that platform.
 

py_megapixel

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I travelled on an 8 car service from Newcastle to Reading one Sunday a couple of months ago. The four car unit I was in was overcrowded and had people standing, but I was in the reserved coaches A - F so the other unit may have been quite quiet.

I have never known an 8 car unit on this route before so I don’t know if it was just a one off.

interestingly at Doncaster it used platform 3B, I really didn’t believe you could get an 8 car service in that platform.
Is it possible that the other set was locked out?
 

sprinterguy

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Doesn’t 3B accommodate 6 car Class 185’s? Mustn’t be that far short of an 8 car Class 220?
A 6-car 185 formation is 142.5 metres long, an 8-car 220 formation is 187.4 metres long. According to the sectional appendix, platform 3B at Doncaster is 165.5 metres long. Presumably an 8-car 220 formation would need the rear vehicle to be locked out in order to call there.
 

swt_passenger

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My regular morning commute is booked for a 4 car Voyager into P12. When on occasion a 5 car shows up, it has to use a different platform.
Thanks for the confirmation, (and also thanks and welcome to @Eloise earlier), seems like 4 car Voyagers will have quite a choice of west end bays at Newcastle, especially now that TPE have gone 5 car with 802s...
 

Triumph

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It’s only 161m in the sectional appendix.
The west end bays are all ok for a 4 car Voyager, but surprisingly none of them are apparently long enough for a 5 car, P10 is shown to be the longest at just 114m. Does anyone know for sure if 5 cars do run into the bays in practice?
The only 5 car 221's that terminate at NCL are the following:
SO 1E32/1V96 (Pfm 3)
1E44/1M72 (Pfm 2)
SU 1E36/1V88 (Pfm5)
1E40/1O32 (Pfm 4)
All the booked doubles are through services.
1S49 The Plymouth -Dundee uses Pfm1 and is booked a 5 Car
 

Eloise

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Platforming will be planned on what is diagrammed to run, what happens on the day will be down to various Control and signallers. Regular issues are discussed at various local performance meetings and workings groups across the country.

At Newcastle there were some restrictions as to what could go into 9-12, some Northern units were barred and TPE preferred (note preferred) to avoid certain bays. This may all have changed over the years.
 

louis97

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I seem to recall that Chesterfield can only take 9 going in one direction, not sure if there are other stations and what happens with 10 car EMR formations there.
Chesterfield is 9 in both directions on platforms 1 and 2. EMR services use SDO. Platform 3 is long enough for 10.
Burton-on-Trent is 9 and Totnes is 8 in both directions.
 
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