• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

EMR 158 shortage?

Status
Not open for further replies.

trebor79

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
4,435
Are EMR short of servicable 158s at the moment?
Lots of Norwich - Liverpool route trains seem to be covered by 156s at the moment, and a few set swaps at Nottingham too.
Any particular reason for this?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

L401CJF

Established Member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,444
Location
Wirral
Noted a 158 paired with 2x153s on a Nottingham service at Liverpool South Parkway last night around 2000, poor driver sandwiched in one of the squashed 153 cabs too!
 

Andy Pacer

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2017
Messages
2,644
Location
Leicestershire
The 153 pairings have been used for the Nottingham to Liverpool section as they can then operate as paired with a PRM compliant 158.
The therefore released 158's have moved onto what was previously single or double 153 work to comply with the recent changes to accessibility regulations.
 

L401CJF

Established Member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,444
Location
Wirral
The 153 pairings have been used for the Nottingham to Liverpool section as they can then operate as paired with a PRM compliant 158.
The therefore released 158's have moved onto what was previously single or double 153 work to comply with the recent changes to accessibility regulations.

This had crossed my mind, it has been a while since I have been over there so not sure what is the norm these days
 

Nymanic

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2014
Messages
146
Location
Manchester
More cynically, it also allows Nottingham-Liverpool services to run short-formed as 158+153 or 156+153. Which doesn't seem uncommon nowadays.
 

Furton

Member
Joined
18 Sep 2018
Messages
23
The 153 pairings have been used for the Nottingham to Liverpool section as they can then operate as paired with a PRM compliant 158.
The therefore released 158's have moved onto what was previously single or double 153 work to comply with the recent changes to accessibility regulations.

The 153 are a huge downgrade from the 158. The seats are awful and cramped, there's no tray table hence it's impossible to work on my laptop when travelling to and from work, how long will this last for? Do EMR think a 153 is acceptable for the journey between Norwich and Liverpool?
 

trebor79

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
4,435
They seem to make some odd rolling stock deployment decisions.
So we see 158s on the Liverpool to Nottingham and Norwich subbed with 156 and 153, yet they choose to run a 158 on Newark to Peterborough which then forms the Spalding shuttle for the rest of the evening.
I guess the answer is the 158 is the sensible choice earlier in the diagram, but it was almost always 153s through Spalding with the occasional 156 before the timetable change. And I don't think the EMR timetable changed all the much?
 

Skymonster

Established Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
1,726
The 153 are a huge downgrade from the 158. The seats are awful and cramped, there's no tray table hence it's impossible to work on my laptop when travelling to and from work, how long will this last for? Do EMR think a 153 is acceptable for the journey between Norwich and Liverpool?
153s are pretty grim even for the Liverpool - Nottingham (trust me, I’ve done it), but it’ll probably continue until the “new” [sic] stock (170s) arrive due the PRM issues mentioned above. Annoyingly the reservations are usually all placed in the 158, leaving those who have probably paid more for walk-up fares in the 153s. Sadly, as is often the case in this country these days, catering to a small minority ends up making the whole experience worse for everyone.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,164
153s are pretty grim even for the Liverpool - Nottingham (trust me, I’ve done it), but it’ll probably continue until the “new” [sic] stock (170s) arrive due the PRM issues mentioned above. Annoyingly the reservations are usually all placed in the 158, leaving those who have probably paid more for walk-up fares in the 153s. Sadly, as is often the case in this country these days, catering to a small minority ends up making the whole experience worse for everyone.
Reservations are in the 158 as that works through from Norwich to Liverpool. I always thought it was to EMT’s credit that they didn’t reserve the strengthening unit added at Nottingham. The likes of XC please note.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,543
The 156 plus 153 combos are due to a number of 156s and 153s having defects requiring them to run in multiple (door faults, cab faults etc). There is also at least one 158 (799) that can't couple at either end. Hence they're often swapped at Nottingham in order to keep 3/4 car trains on the Liverpool end with the 158 turning back to Norwich. The ex Anglia 156s also can't couple up to anything except 153s and each other.

I don't think anyone is pretending it's ideal - EMR are being quite clear that the 15x fleet is extremely tired and requires a lot of fiddling around to provide enough trains for service each day.

The end result of all this is a lot of 153s running to Liverpool. The first 170s arrive in March so hopefully things will start to improve - the last 2 Anglia 156s also arrive this week and 156405 should be back from works attention before too long.
 

Skymonster

Established Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
1,726
The 156 plus 153 combos are due to a number of 156s and 153s having defects requiring them to run in multiple (door faults, cab faults etc). There is also at least one 158 (799) that can't couple at either end.
So in other words, EMR are not on top of the maintenance tasks...

I don't think anyone is pretending it's ideal - EMR are being quite clear that the 15x fleet is extremely tired and requires a lot of fiddling around to provide enough trains for service each day.
And customers should just suck it up and accept the situation? Sounds more like p***-poor planning to me.

The first 170s arrive in March so hopefully things will start to improve - the last 2 Anglia 156s also arrive this week and 156405 should be back from works attention before too long.
All hail the 170s - NOT! So as we know, EMR customers are getting well-worn Turbonasties back, a type that left the East Midlands franchise well over a decade ago. The whole “new trains” thing that Abelio supposedly brought to the table was all a smoke-and-mirrors job designed to appeal to the non-knowledgable public, with “new” really meaning world-weary 170s, 180s, 360s and HSTs - and the only truly new stock coming two years down the line to replace the current newest type in the fleet.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,543
So in other words, EMR are not on top of the maintenance tasks...


And customers should just suck it up and accept the situation? Sounds more like p***-poor planning to me.


All hail the 170s - NOT! So as we know, EMR customers are getting well-worn Turbonasties back, a type that left the East Midlands franchise well over a decade ago. The whole “new trains” thing that Abelio supposedly brought to the table was all a smoke-and-mirrors job designed to appeal to the non-knowledgable public, with “new” really meaning world-weary 170s, 180s, 360s and HSTs - and the only truly new stock coming two years down the line to replace the current newest type in the fleet.

The newest 158s are 28/29 years old, the oldest 153/156 are about 33 years old. They were totally shot under EMT and they're not suddenly better under EMR. What has improved since New Year is the near elimination of single car 153s. I personally am quite happy with the 170 solution as long as they receive the requisite work. The sooner the Liverpool route is removed from the equation the better it will be for elsewhere - it remains a resource drain and if things go wrong it's a nightmare to sort out with everything being concentrated in the centre and east.

The 153s are a crap solution and so are the 156s for that kind of service and I don't think anyone would defend them working on a theoretically prime Express route however it's the only way to run the train service with the legislative changes and so for the time being it is what it is.

I don't like it either. It's embarrassing. But I am choosing to see light at the end of the tunnel for this region's local routes for the first time in decades.
 

Skymonster

Established Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
1,726
At the moment the Sheffield-Manchester section of the Norwich-Liverpool route is like chalk and cheese. Risk EMR: clapped out, shabby and uncomfortable 156s and 153s, feel lucky if you get a 158. Risk Northern: clapped out 150s and 142s. Or amazingly, now there are more double units running, TPEs pretty comfortable 185s which even have Wi-fi! Really EMR and Northern should be classed as ORCATS robbers on this part of the route at the moment.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,543
At the moment the Sheffield-Manchester section of the Norwich-Liverpool route is like chalk and cheese. Risk EMR: clapped out, shabby and uncomfortable 156s and 153s, feel lucky if you get a 158. Risk Northern: clapped out 150s and 142s. Or amazingly, now there are more double units running, TPEs pretty comfortable 185s which even have Wi-fi! Really EMR and Northern should be classed as ORCATS robbers on this part of the route at the moment.

Ironically until December TPE were known for toy sized 3 car trains with about the same capacity as a 2 car 158 that were wedged at any time of day. They're also prone to not turning up at the drop of a hat for lack of a driver especially at weekends and with no prior notice until it arrives from the east at Sheffield or from Manchester Airport at Picc and unceremoniously gets binned with no notice.

It's also TPE you have to thank for swingeing hidden price rises by 'adjusting' the off peak restrictions and removing the any permitted off peak day tickets. The EMR super off peak day tickets from Nottingham to Manchester are only a couple of quid more than the cheapest Sheffield to Manchester walk up return, the any permitted off peak return.

All 3 operators have their problems.

I do repeat - the 153s and 156s are embarrassing. They're draughty, cold and noisy - though they do also eat luggage nicely which is very helpful for the weekend travellers who are far less discerning than the weekday business travellers when it comes down to the onboard facilities.
 

Skymonster

Established Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
1,726
All 3 operators have their problems.
Indeed, I never thought I’d be praising TPE but that’s why I said “at the moment” - I appreciate from firsthand experience that TPE has been pretty bad in the recent past, to the point where EMR running pairs of 158s was preferable. But now the ball is moving to the other court. I guess the reality is that EMR in particular has no real incentive to invest in beyond Sheffield to Liverpool (or maybe even beyond Nottingham) route as it’s likely to be transferred in the not too distant future.
 

Mugby

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2012
Messages
1,918
Location
Derby
As far as the Liverpools are concerned, surely the arrival of the 170s won't offer any real improvement.

I understand they will be a mixture of 2-car and 3-car sets so the best that Liverpool services get will be 3-cars.
How much of a reduction will this be on what was the norm of 2 x 158s? Also, there will be occasions when only a 2-car is available (as is often the case with XC on the Cardiffs) and I imagine EMR won't want them to be coupled to any others due to no gangway connections.

Aren't the Anglia 170s fairly low density due to having a generous number of tables? It seems to me they could create as many problems as they solve!
 

Prestige15

On Moderation
Joined
6 Aug 2016
Messages
478
Location
Warrington
As far as the Liverpools are concerned, surely the arrival of the 170s won't offer any real improvement.

I understand they will be a mixture of 2-car and 3-car sets so the best that Liverpool services get will be 3-cars.
How much of a reduction will this be on what was the norm of 2 x 158s? Also, there will be occasions when only a 2-car is available (as is often the case with XC on the Cardiffs) and I imagine EMR won't want them to be coupled to any others due to no gangway connections.

Aren't the Anglia 170s fairly low density due to the dhaving a generous number of tables? It seems to me they could create as many problems as they solve!
It will improve dwell time for a start due to the door layout and theres still questions about the possibility of TPE taking over the liv-nott section
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
As far as the Liverpools are concerned, surely the arrival of the 170s won't offer any real improvement.

I understand they will be a mixture of 2-car and 3-car sets so the best that Liverpool services get will be 3-cars.
How much of a reduction will this be on what was the norm of 2 x 158s? Also, there will be occasions when only a 2-car is available (as is often the case with XC on the Cardiffs) and I imagine EMR won't want them to be coupled to any others due to no gangway connections.

Aren't the Anglia 170s fairly low density due to having a generous number of tables? It seems to me they could create as many problems as they solve!

That will be a massive reduction. If this is the "solution" for Nottingham services, then we were right to be sceptical about the change in franchise.
 

DDB

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2011
Messages
473
The Liverpool to Nottingham section is being moved to a (yet to be announced) other franchise in the next couple of years so I would guess EMR won't use the 170s that they are introducing, on that line unless they really really have to due to problems with other units.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
The Liverpool to Nottingham section is being moved to a (yet to be announced) other franchise in the next couple of years so I would guess EMR won't use the 170s that they are introducing, on that line unless they really really have to due to problems with other units.

Judging by the state of this discussion, one would hope that Liverpool to Nottingham can be hived off to TPE as soon as their Class 185s are spare.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,543
The Liverpool to Nottingham section is being moved to a (yet to be announced) other franchise in the next couple of years so I would guess EMR won't use the 170s that they are introducing, on that line unless they really really have to due to problems with other units.

It depends on the diagrams. I think they're likely to appear. You could put a 3 car 170 on the diagram for the 0520 from Nottingham in the morning. This would handle numbers on that service well enough with maybe a few standees Warrington to Liverpool, and give a useful capacity uplift on the currently 2 carriage and rather busy 1747 from Nottingham to Liverpool. It also starts and ends at Nottingham so no issues with stabling at Norwich
 

Andy Pacer

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2017
Messages
2,644
Location
Leicestershire
As far as the Liverpools are concerned, surely the arrival of the 170s won't offer any real improvement.

I understand they will be a mixture of 2-car and 3-car sets so the best that Liverpool services get will be 3-cars.
How much of a reduction will this be on what was the norm of 2 x 158s? Also, there will be occasions when only a 2-car is available (as is often the case with XC on the Cardiffs) and I imagine EMR won't want them to be coupled to any others due to no gangway connections.

Aren't the Anglia 170s fairly low density due to having a generous number of tables? It seems to me they could create as many problems as they solve!

Also I suppose in the short to medium term, if the 170's run on other routes, this may then release the 158's back onto the Liverpools.
 

Furton

Member
Joined
18 Sep 2018
Messages
23
As far as the Liverpools are concerned, surely the arrival of the 170s won't offer any real improvement.

I understand they will be a mixture of 2-car and 3-car sets so the best that Liverpool services get will be 3-cars.
How much of a reduction will this be on what was the norm of 2 x 158s? Also, there will be occasions when only a 2-car is available (as is often the case with XC on the Cardiffs) and I imagine EMR won't want them to be coupled to any others due to no gangway connections.

Aren't the Anglia 170s fairly low density due to having a generous number of tables? It seems to me they could create as many problems as they solve!

Would they not double them up? A two or three car 170 will be leaving people behind at either Warrington or Birchwood on the morning service from Liverpool to Manchester, what a shambles.
 

soccermad

Member
Joined
2 Mar 2008
Messages
83
Location
Derbyshire
Saw a white and blue livery Class 158 (I Think) with EMR Lettering at Whitwell this afternoon heading to Worksop

Anyone know where that livery has come from please ??
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top