• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Suggestions for a direct service from Stockport to Manchester Victoria (and possibly beyond)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,823
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-is-it-still-a-parliamentary-service.165414/

I do wonder if the service should actually be reinstated due to the split of IC type services between Picc and Vic. I'd go Stockport-Victoria myself, though. It might be a reasonable place to terminate one of the services from the west of Vic such as maybe one of the Atherton line services which are typically a 2-car DMU so, assuming it could be pathed, might well fit the bay. Can the line support an hourly service?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,033
To me, it seems a potential option to explore. It solves the lack of western terminating platforms in Manchester (pair it with a diesel route) - but then could also offer local opportunities to areas which could do with a boost - and then also regional connectivity to Victoria from Stockport, and vice versa to London/South services avoiding Picc.

The issue will be paths over the viaduct I'm sure. And agree to an extent that like Castlefield, they shouldn't be utilized on 2 car services.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,823
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
To me, it seems a potential option to explore. It solves the lack of western terminating platforms in Manchester (pair it with a diesel route) - but then could also offer local opportunities to areas which could do with a boost - and then also regional connectivity to Victoria from Stockport, and vice versa to London/South services avoiding Picc.

The issue will be paths over the viaduct I'm sure. And agree to an extent that like Castlefield, they shouldn't be utilized on 2 car services.

I have also wondered in the past if it would make sense, in removing overcrowded end-doored services from Castlefield, to run the Liverpool-Nottingham service via Chat Moss, Vic and Denton to Stockport, replacing it on the CLC with a Class 195-operated Northern express service. That of course already has a path over the viaduct, so if the times could work...
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,562
Location
Western Part of the UK
If speeds were looked at between Denton Jct and Ashton Moss North, you could probably allow the Chester - Stockport trips to extend through to Victoria. The current timings though, you are looking at 26 mins between Stockport and Victoria which is just astronomical when you could get to Picc and then get a tram to Victoria quicker.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,394
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
If speeds were looked at between Denton Jct and Ashton Moss North, you could probably allow the Chester - Stockport trips to extend through to Victoria. The current timings though, you are looking at 26 mins between Stockport and Victoria which is just astronomical when you could get to Picc and then get a tram to Victoria quicker.

Are there any paths into Victoria to allow this and is there bay platforms 1 or 2 spare capacity to handle such a terminator there, as you would not want a terminator to block any of the through lines?
 

billh

Member
Joined
7 Jan 2015
Messages
227
The killer on this line is the single track (used to be quad) between Denton and Heaton Norris. Denton Jct to Ashton Moss North has all been relayed in the last few years and even a new bridge over the canal so should be fairly speedy. There's quite a lot of heavy freight using the line at the moment too, the FOCs won't want to give anything away for passenger use. Some ECS from/to Newton Heath as well.
 

Nathan F

New Member
Joined
5 Jul 2019
Messages
2
With regard to this service I’d like to see it operate hourly, but not just between Stalybridge and Stockport. Why not extend it in both directions and become Huddersfield - Hazel Grove or even Buxton? An additional hourly service (to give two tph at Denton and Reddish South) could run via the Ashton Moss line into Manchester Victoria. Do this and Denton and Reddish South will no longer be two of the least used stations in the country!
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,562
Location
Western Part of the UK
The killer on this line is the single track (used to be quad) between Denton and Heaton Norris. Denton Jct to Ashton Moss North has all been relayed in the last few years and even a new bridge over the canal so should be fairly speedy. There's quite a lot of heavy freight using the line at the moment too, the FOCs won't want to give anything away for passenger use. Some ECS from/to Newton Heath as well.
The line is 30 between Denton and Ashton Moss North according to the sectional appendix. The single line is 40mph and though it could go up a bit higher, it wouldn't make a huge difference surely as you would be stopping at the stations.

It's worth noting that the Chester - Stockports did used to run onto Newton Heath in the AM and in the PM, they run back from Newton Heath so in the PM, it would be removing a ECS and making it into passenger service. AM should be fine given the times the freight trains run.


Are there any paths into Victoria to allow this and is there bay platforms 1 or 2 spare capacity to handle such a terminator there, as you would not want a terminator to block any of the through lines?
Platform 2 after 3pm is only used by Stalybridge shuttle so if you use a 2 car on both the Chester and Stalybridge, you should be fine. Otherwise, you need to be in around 16:30 to be back out at 16:40 (which would then work on the current ECS path from Phillips Park Jct down to Stockport. Same again an hour later for the other PM service.

AM, you could replace 5D44 with a trip to Reddish South and back but not sure if that would be of much use. The 08:39 arrival though from Chester (which then runs out at 08:41 currently on ECS to Hazel Grove) could run into MCV with a 09:07 arrival into P1 and has 09:35ish to vacate.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
The killer on this line is the single track

The killer on this line is the near-total lack of local passengers, which was plain to see in the days when it shuttled up and down all day and I used it regularly when travelling between Yorkshire and Birmingham until shortly before TransPennine trains started going into Piccadilly.

The overwhelming majority of those using the line were long-distance passengers going between Staybridge and Stockport - any services calling at Denton and Reddish South going to Victoria, by whatever route, would be so round the houses and slow as to be pointless. Denton station is a long hike from most of the community it purported to serve and there are plenty of other options - other rail lines, trams at the likes of Ashton Moss, and umpteen buses - to get in and out of central Manchester, which is a rather more popular destination for locals than Stockport.

Despite some TPE trains now using Victoria, there are still plenty of connections to and from Yorkshire at Piccadilly between TPE and other long-distance services, be that West Coast, XC or TfW, so in reality nothing has changed.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,157
The killer on this line is the near-total lack of local passengers, which was plain to see in the days when it shuttled up and down all day and I used it regularly when travelling between Yorkshire and Birmingham until shortly before TransPennine trains started going into Piccadilly.

The overwhelming majority of those using the line were long-distance passengers going between Staybridge and Stockport - any services calling at Denton and Reddish South going to Victoria, by whatever route, would be so round the houses and slow as to be pointless. Denton station is a long hike from most of the community it purported to serve and there are plenty of other options - other rail lines, trams at the likes of Ashton Moss, and umpteen buses - to get in and out of central Manchester, which is a rather more popular destination for locals than Stockport.

Despite some TPE trains now using Victoria, there are still plenty of connections to and from Yorkshire at Piccadilly between TPE and other long-distance services, be that West Coast, XC or TfW, so in reality nothing has changed.
I've seen a plan somewhere - and I dunno if it was part of the TFGM's Great Scheme or was a primary school kid's doodle, but it involved a tram "circle line" which would incorporate the Guide Bridge - Stockport line.
But it's never gonna happen, but maybe congestion on the roads nowadays means that passenger numbers would increase on that line - we won't know unless we try.
 

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,669
The killer on this line is the near-total lack of local passengers, which was plain to see in the days when it shuttled up and down all day and I used it regularly when travelling between Yorkshire and Birmingham until shortly before TransPennine trains started going into Piccadilly.

The overwhelming majority of those using the line were long-distance passengers going between Staybridge and Stockport - any services calling at Denton and Reddish South going to Victoria, by whatever route, would be so round the houses and slow as to be pointless. Denton station is a long hike from most of the community it purported to serve and there are plenty of other options - other rail lines, trams at the likes of Ashton Moss, and umpteen buses - to get in and out of central Manchester, which is a rather more popular destination for locals than Stockport.

Despite some TPE trains now using Victoria, there are still plenty of connections to and from Yorkshire at Piccadilly between TPE and other long-distance services, be that West Coast, XC or TfW, so in reality nothing has changed.

Yes. I had a friend who used to travel Durham to Church Stretton this way from university.

You know, I think there may be a market from passengers who wish to avoid the chaos which is Piccadilly. I'm thinking of the long distance often required when changing trains, the passive-aggressive ticket checkers and the outright aggressive shouters.
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,072
Location
Stockport
I've seen a plan somewhere - and I dunno if it was part of the TFGM's Great Scheme or was a primary school kid's doodle, but it involved a tram "circle line" which would incorporate the Guide Bridge - Stockport line.
But it's never gonna happen, but maybe congestion on the roads nowadays means that passenger numbers would increase on that line - we won't know unless we try.

I agree with you Howard. A few other factors that were perhaps also not applicable back in the days when jimm used the route were the fact that a lot of local residents weren’t even aware that the service between Stalybridge & Stockport still existed, plus of course in recent years much development has taken place around Manchester’s Northern Quarter so a service taking 20 minutes from Reddish South to Victoria could prove a rather attractive proposition over the current bus which only goes as far as Piccadilly Gardens and takes well upwards of 30 minutes at best during peak hours. There has also been considerable housing development within walking distance of the station at Reddish over the last 30 or so years and there is more currently on the way so this mitigates the lack of a station car park somewhat. On the other hand I would tend to agree regarding the siting of Denton, as I’m not quite as familiar with its surroundings currently.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,157
I agree with you Howard. A few other factors that were perhaps also not applicable back in the days when jimm used the route were the fact that a lot of local residents weren’t even aware that the service between Stalybridge & Stockport still existed, plus of course in recent years much development has taken place around Manchester’s Northern Quarter so a service taking 20 minutes from Reddish South to Victoria could prove a rather attractive proposition over the current bus which only goes as far as Piccadilly Gardens and takes well upwards of 30 minutes at best during peak hours. There has also been considerable housing development within walking distance of the station at Reddish over the last 30 or so years and there is more currently on the way so this mitigates the lack of a station car park somewhat. On the other hand I would tend to agree regarding the siting of Denton, as I’m not quite as familiar with its surroundings currently.
Yes, it seems obvious to me to run the service to Victoria and beyond rather than Stalybridge, although it is the "long way round" - if the trains continued to the North West via Victoria that could mean a couple of movements per hour along the corridor could be removed?
Thinking also a P+R at Denton might be possible to get commuters/shoppers via the line to Victoria?
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
Yes. I had a friend who used to travel Durham to Church Stretton this way from university.

You know, I think there may be a market from passengers who wish to avoid the chaos which is Piccadilly. I'm thinking of the long distance often required when changing trains, the passive-aggressive ticket checkers and the outright aggressive shouters.

The odds of boarding XC and TfW services in particular and getting to somewhere to sit are rather better at Piccadilly than they are at Stockport. I know where I'd be going, even if it involves using Piccadilly.

I agree with you Howard. A few other factors that were perhaps also not applicable back in the days when jimm used the route were the fact that a lot of local residents weren’t even aware that the service between Stalybridge & Stockport still existed, plus of course in recent years much development has taken place around Manchester’s Northern Quarter so a service taking 20 minutes from Reddish South to Victoria could prove a rather attractive proposition over the current bus which only goes as far as Piccadilly Gardens and takes well upwards of 30 minutes at best during peak hours. There has also been considerable housing development within walking distance of the station at Reddish over the last 30 or so years and there is more currently on the way so this mitigates the lack of a station car park somewhat. On the other hand I would tend to agree regarding the siting of Denton, as I’m not quite as familiar with its surroundings currently.

Not sure how people were unaware of trains that shuttled up and down hourly each way all week and had done so for many years.

Even if there are more houses near Reddish South now, the railway line still runs in the wrong direction from the place most potential passengers want to go.

Denton has the reservoirs and a golf course to the north, lots of business sheds immediately to the east and south and is cut off from the housing to the west by the M60 and the M67 cuts right past as well west to east.

This is bit like the argument that if only GWR would run lots more trains on the Newquay branch all year, then more people would use the line for local journeys - which they won't, as it at ends up at Par, rather than Truro or St Austell. If a service doesn't go to the right place, people will not use it and the diversion of TransPennines into Piccadilly took away the raison d'être of the Stockport-Staybridge run - long-distance connections, not a local link.

Yes, it seems obvious to me to run the service to Victoria and beyond rather than Stalybridge, although it is the "long way round" - if the trains continued to the North West via Victoria that could mean a couple of movements per hour along the corridor could be removed?
Thinking also a P+R at Denton might be possible to get commuters/shoppers via the line to Victoria?

It seems obvious to run a train that can only serve Reddish South and Denton, then meanders its way to Victoria via Ashton Moss?
Good luck with getting s subsidy for that one. People from places north west of Manchester want to get to the airport, not Stockport.
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,072
Location
Stockport
Yes, it seems obvious to me to run the service to Victoria and beyond rather than Stalybridge, although it is the "long way round" - if the trains continued to the North West via Victoria that could mean a couple of movements per hour along the corridor could be removed?
Thinking also a P+R at Denton might be possible to get commuters/shoppers via the line to Victoria?

If something could be arranged with the adjacent Sainsbury’s store at Denton for a P+R facility perhaps that would work well, likewise at Morrisons next to Reddish South, even if only a parking facility ?
 

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,446
Not sure how people were unaware of trains that shuttled up and down hourly each way all week and had done so for many years.

Not saying I think Denton would be overwhelmed with passengers, but I find it entirely believable that people wouldn't know there was a train service - it wasn't well used, so they wouldn't know anyone who used it, and it wouldn't be high profile in the press like an intercity or London commuter service. If you asked people on a random Northern high street the destination or frequency of trains from the local station I wouldn't expect many good answers. Anecdote - I know someone who travelled regularly between Blackburn and Clitheroe for years, and used rail for other journeys, but didn't consider it for Clitheroe, believing the station to have permanently closed.
 

IanD

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2011
Messages
2,719
Location
Newport Pagnell
Anecdote - I know someone who travelled regularly between Blackburn and Clitheroe for years, and used rail for other journeys, but didn't consider it for Clitheroe, believing the station to have permanently closed.

To be fair, Cltheroe station had permanently closed until it was re-opened.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,823
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Talking of "chaos" at Piccadilly, that's only 13/14. The main trainshed is quite a civilised station with excellent facilities and pleasant architecture. One of the best in the country indeed.
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,754
Location
York
If speeds were looked at between Denton Jct and Ashton Moss North, you could probably allow the Chester - Stockport trips to extend through to Victoria. The current timings though, you are looking at 26 mins between Stockport and Victoria which is just astronomical when you could get to Picc and then get a tram to Victoria quicker.
Just so — it's a desperately slow route and there doesn't seem to be that much that could be done to improve the section between Denton Jn and Ashton Moss North Jn. The past was sold when Denton Jn to Droylesden Jn was closed. If that had still been there, there would have been scope for sufficient improvement to get reasonably brisk running right through from Stockport to Victoria (assuming Miles Platting will be dealt with as originally planned for the Trans-Pennine Modernisation!). But there was one of the several foolish short closures and giving up of the rights of way that happened all round the Manchester area ...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,394
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
The killer on this line is the single track (used to be quad) between Denton and Heaton Norris. Denton Jct to Ashton Moss North has all been relayed in the last few years and even a new bridge over the canal so should be fairly speedy. There's quite a lot of heavy freight using the line at the moment too, the FOCs won't want to give anything away for passenger use. Some ECS from/to Newton Heath as well.

Has anyone any details of the daily ECS use to and from Newton Heath over that line?
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,782
Has anyone any details of the daily ECS use to and from Newton Heath over that line?

Four trips southbound

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...20-01-29/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

5W00 0558 Newton Heath T.M.D. to Alderley Edge
5S07 0617 Newton Heath T.M.D. to New Mills Central
5D54 1626 Newton Heath T.M.D. to Stockport
5D56 1735 Newton Heath T.M.D. to Stockport

One trip northbound

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y59549/2020-01-29/detailed

5J84 2116 Alderley Edge to Newton Heath T.M.D.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top