Yes, I think so as well.
376 is a T key (I think) 465s use a conventional key.
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Ex-train driver sentenced for incident at Cannon Street
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376 is a T key (I think) 465s use a conventional key.
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He went through the burst through door. Both units require a BR1 Key to access via the burst through. Both have locks for the external door.
Raul_Duke
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Exactly, so why bother trying to do anything.
O L Leigh
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So do you not bother to lock your car when you park it or secure your house at night before you go to bed?
All this talk about terrorists and people hijacking trains is a big over the top. The railway needs to take reasonable steps to secure non-public areas as they contain safety equipment that we don’t want to go missing and controls that can affect the safe performance of the train. Of course these areas could be more secure (and as someone who has to sit in them I really wish they were) but on the whole I think that the balance between security and usability is about right.
Raul_Duke
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That’s the point I was making....
You think a door that can be opened with a spoon is the right balance?
External cab doors are almost never locked on Electrostars, though. How else are you supposed to get into the cab while balancing your coffee, bag etc.
.Internal cab doors in both 376s and 465s are prone to being left on the latch and swinging open when you least expect it. Cleaners and platform staff have also been known to leave them open before trains enter service (so I’m told)...
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It did happen a few years ago though when some kids got into a freight loco and drove it down a siding as I recall
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd say it would be better to secure the equipment within the cab than the cab itself, to be honest. Particularly as on some units it's a break glass emergency exit anyway so you can't stop people getting in.
So if you were going to put a proximity-card-based thing on anything, it'd make more sense for it to be the door controls and the driving desk.
The things where you can cause other people real problems (i.e. cause danger to life) are if you can release the brake or you can release the doors. They're the only things that really need guarding against. Back in DMU days the former would be prevented by the driver taking the brake handle with him!
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matt_world2004
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_McCollum
There's this guy, he has apparently stolen NYC subway trains
There's this guy, he has apparently stolen NYC subway trains
I figured as much, the booked driver must have been rather shocked.
It is very easy to open these externally too, and I'd say its the preference of the driver which one they choose when going to the cab.
As I understood it he entered the back cab, hit a plunger as the train was pulling out and started blowing the horn (both horn and plungers work with no driver’s key on in the local cab).
The first the booked driver would have known about is is when his brakes went into emergency when he was halfway out of CST.
Still, I gather a competent driver would have realised fairly quickly that his/her trailing cab had been compromised, especially if they heard a horn.
I just meant to clarify he didn’t “burst” into the active driver’s cab (although that has also been known to happen on the SE network, and elsewhere)! My understanding is that he entered an unoccupied cab, hit a plunger soon after the train started moving, leaned on the horn and refused to allow access until he was dragged out by the BTP.
If the brakes went into emergency a compromised cab would be pretty low on the list of possibilities that would immediately spring to mind (albeit the blaring horn might give it away).
Depending on how far the train had moved out of the station the driver might also have been unable to access the rear unit (no inter-unit gangway doors on SE metro stock). If the train hadn’t moved far he could have walked back and egressed himself into the platform easily enough.
In these units, a plunger would have been my first suspicion.
If the brakes wouldn’t come off at all, yes. The previous driver might have accidentally hit a plunger with his bag after keying off etc.
But once you’d actually started moving?! Air burst/failed coupler might be more likely (albeit the main res should indicate that).
The version of the story I’d heard from someone who works at SE was that the train was half out of CST, and fouling the station throat, before the brakes jammed on.
100% I'd suspect a plunger before anything else. 'Think simple' is my motto. We get taught not to 'go down the garden path' Keep it simple with fault finding. Then, if you still couldn't figure it out, apply the cut and run policy.
So your brakes won’t release from emergency when you key on and whack the brake handle back to step 2. Happened to me the other day.
Turned out I’d left the brake handle in emergency at the rear end after keying off (we dump the brake into emergency, before keying off, on one type of stock I sign). Oops. Easily done. Locos do your nut sometimes.
If I was an SE driver driving multiple units, like SE drivers sign, and the brakes went into emergency once I’d started rolling, the first thing id be looking at is the TPWS panel to see if I’d had a brake demand.
I might have committed a bit of a booboo and spadded, without even realising it. That’s not exactly unusual for SE drivers, let’s face it
. That aside, I might suspect a brake continuity wire fault of some kind for sure but, in the absence of a TMS to tell me what had happened, someone entering a cab and swiping a plunger deliberately?! That’s going to be very low on my list.
How often does that actually happen?!
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Guards have been known to accidentally knock plungers as well as passing Drivers. Trespass is certainly rare but kids have been known to get in and hit plungers. I guess for me its a lot down to experience. Potentially, I'd 'cab to cab' and see if someone was in the back for any reason.
Surely you’d be thinking brake fault/egress/passcom (but faulty alarm)? Airburst?
Interesting question (maybe I need to revisit my traction course notes
The second the brakes apply, I'd follow a quick check through everything that gives me a brake application. As you rightly state, check the TPWS light every time. In these units, I look for a 'secondary indication' as that is how I was taught. No lights, no noises, nothing on the main res or brake res, quick look out the window and if nothing... It's a pretty much going to be a plunger. Not forgetting that is specific to these units.
In the years Ive been driving, I have never had an air burst so that would be last on my list.
A combination of experience and good traction knowledge should eliminate quite a few faults within a few seconds. When we do brake faults on a sim run, it should take around 10 seconds to figure out what has gone wrong. Again, because of how these units work.
I can't remember if it was a 376 or a 465 but on a 376 it would have shown on the Mitrac.
Used to be part of the training package for "new" OBS's to Southern AFAIK also to stay well away from oplungers. Although often told not to be in the back cab anyway!
SlimJim1694
Member
It was a ten car 465 and the driver had to get lines blocked to access rear units.
It was between the station and the signal on C line that puts you over the up line onto the old 1 down for London Bridge. If he'd waited until the train was over those points he'd have totally shut down Cannon Street but he pulled it before the driver had the road so they could still use the A and B lines for a bit until the juice went off.
Agree with this. Especially around Cannon Street. Theres no AWS on the first line of signals just outside and people routinely balls up there. It's not uncommon to be dispatched on a single yellow and stop at the next signal, that has no AWS, with part of your train still in the platform.
Ive had not had an air burst but I've twice had dodgy solenoids giving me a UBS. Never had cab trespass or plungers done. I wouldn't be thinking plunger until I'd ruled out all the more likely stuff. Any passing driver in the rear cab who had inadvertently hit a plunger would surely realise their mistake rather than just sit there. With a networker the procedure is you have to phone some bloke at Slade Green if he can be bothered to answer and he taps into your unit on his computer and tells you what's wrong so the driver knew what it was before they went back.
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