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Moral dilemma

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Skimpot flyer

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Whilst discussing the benefits of buying a Hatton to Lapworth season (to gain a cheap Gold Card), I told a friend they could also gain a 1/3rd discount on off-peak Oyster fares.
My friend said it wouldn’t be cost-effective for them, as one leg of their Zone3 to Zone3 commute (via Zone1) is in peak hours. To my alarm, they then inadvertently let slip that, to avoid paying £42/week, they were purchasing a Zones2-3 Travelcard, presumably unregistered.
I was shocked. I said ‘you’re taking a big risk, you realise?’ to which they replied ‘but £42 a week is too much’.
When I looked at the TfL single fare finder today, I see that the fares for their journey are £3.30 peak and £2.80 off-peak. Using pay-as-you-go Oyster would cost them £30.50 on a 5-day commute. So they’re taking a big risk to save only £3.50 per week !!!
Should I warn them in the strongest possible terms to desist from this risky and bizarre practice?
That recent series on Channel 4 did, I seem to remember, catch people doing a similar thing, even people with unregistered cards.
This person is not a close friend, but a friend of my colleague that I recently asked advice for, on travelling to Heathrow. Adults make their own choices in life, but I feel strongly about fare evasion and I don’t think the person realises the seriousness if they are caught
 
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Journeyman

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You've told them they're taking a risk. There's not really much else you can do. It's not clever behaviour and they'll probably get caught eventually, but it's not your problem if they are.

We're all adults here. We make our own choices, and we have to deal with the consequences.
 

PeterC

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If the default single fare between the two stastions includes zone 1 then they will be charged the difference on PAYG as long as they both touch in and out. If they can avoid touching in/out at one end of the journey then they might get away with it, for a while.
 

najaB

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Should I warn them in the strongest possible terms to desist from this risky and bizarre practice?
Yes. Perhaps get them to look at the Disputes and Prosecutions section of the forum. And then leave it at that: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it float.
 

ainsworth74

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I would broadly agree with @najaB. Make sure they're fully aware of the seriousness of what they're doing. Perhaps ask them what a criminal conviction would mean for the current or future employment prospects and how they would feel forking over potentially several hundred (or more even) pounds in fines?

But if you've made them aware of the true seriousness of what they're doing and they keep doing it? Well, as you say, they're an adult and they've made their choice no matter how unwise it might be!
 

Bletchleyite

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Definitely worth pointing out that it can result in a criminal conviction (and it sounds like RoRA would stick easily here). Most people think it's just a "fine" (PF) which if they pay it once in a while they are still quids in.
 

matt_world2004

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Point out what the pay as you go fare is and ask is it really worth the risk for £3.50
 

yorkie

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.... they were purchasing a Zones2-3 Travelcard, presumably unregistered....
.... even people with unregistered cards....
Are you suggesting this is being done on an Oyster card rather than a paper Travelcard?

If they are using Oyster, it sounds like you are suggesting they are not tapping in at the origin or destination? There can't be that many Z3 to Z3 commutes via Z1 that involve ungated stations at both ends and no gates within Zone 1.
 

paddington

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There may be some Z3 to Z3 journeys where you can touch in, pass through Z1 and touch out with a Z2-3 travelcard without being charged any extra PAYG.

There are certainly some Z2-Z2 and Z2-Z3 journeys where this is (or at least was) possible.

Also, see this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ster-card-with-travelcard-payg-credit.143087/

Furthermore, the suggestion of the Gold card is completely separate from this. If they had an annual travelcard at adult rate they should already have received a Gold card with the purchase, which can be added to the same Oyster (if on oyster) without needing to buy a Hatton-Lapworth ticket that would never be used.
 
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yorkie

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There may be some Z3 to Z3 journeys where you can touch in, pass through Z1 and touch out with a Z2-3 travelcard without being charged any extra PAYG.

There are certainly some Z2-Z2 and Z2-Z3 journeys where this is (or at least was) possible.
Which is totally legitimate; if that's the case there has been a big misunderstanding!
 

Skimpot flyer

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Which is totally legitimate; if that's the case there has been a big misunderstanding!
Are you saying a journey originated in Zone3 that passes through Zones 2 and 1, out though through Zone 2 and ends in Zone 3 on the other side of the Thames is covered by a Zones 2/3 season ???
 

matt_world2004

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Are you saying a journey originated in Zone3 that passes through Zones 2 and 1, out though through Zone 2 and ends in Zone 3 on the other side of the Thames is covered by a Zones 2/3 season ???

No but there are some bugs in the system where you may not be charged for making a journey like this, providing the customer touches in and out at the start and end of the journey it's not their fault.
 

Bletchleyite

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Are you saying a journey originated in Zone3 that passes through Zones 2 and 1, out though through Zone 2 and ends in Zone 3 on the other side of the Thames is covered by a Zones 2/3 season ???

If it's on Oyster it is allowed if the default is to charge a non-Zone 1 fare for that journey, yes. The problem with Oyster and the Zones is that they're not compatible charging models, so the mapping is imperfect, TfL accept that.
 

RJ

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It's not clear what exactly the passenger the OP knows is doing.

However people who have reached adulthood probably don't need to be lectured about sorting a ticket that covers their whole journey. Some people are totally comfortable with low level fraud/theft and won't thank you for preaching to them. If this is what they're up to then leave it for the railways to tell them.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Update: I had a gentle word with the person directly, without lecturing, and showed her the Disputes & Prosecutions threads here, and told her about the recent Channel 5 series. I recalled a person with a similar Zones 2/3 Travelcard who regularly travelled from somewhere on the southern end of the Northern Line, tapping in. Their next recorded tap-in was when boarding a bus in Finsbury Park, in Zone 2.
I couldn’t recall exactly how they knew the person had travelled through Zone 1, but they did know. I guess the time interval between the two taps was way too short for them to have travelled via Balham, Clapham Junction, Willesden and Highbury (and they didn’t touch any Yellow readers at Balham, which you’d almost certainly need to do changing between tube and rail).
After realising that she might appear to be ‘getting away with it’, she acknowledges she’s been risking prosecution. Her Travelcard expires tomorrow and she says she’ll henceforth be using Contactless PAYG for her travel.
Friendship intact, lesson learned
 

kristiang85

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Given what you've potentially saved her from, I'd say she owes you a beer or two!
 
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