Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

stonojnr · 28 Jan 2020

trebor79 said:
Oh dear, that's a bit of bad luck. I suppose one of the new trains was bound to break down at some point. No doubt there will be a bit of a fuss in the local media.

a bit of bad luck ? A train gets stuck for 5hrs with passengers on board without lighting,heating,toilets or even hot drinks as they ran out, that they eventually decide to use ladders to get passengers off with because the rescue train coupling was broke, and thats just a bit of bad luck... :rolleyes:

have they even tested a de-train properly because it sure didnt look like they did given how little anyone seemed to know about what to do next.

and when was the last time a 90+mk3 set did that ? the only one I can remember involving passengers de-training was on Liverpool Street approaches when a bit of the new overground bridge theyd put in decided to prove Newtons law of gravity, this is 86s & summer of 95-96ish territory when the trains used to just give up in the middle of Essex somewhere for no reason and youd lose hours cooking as the aircon packed up, but at least you could use the toilet if you could fight your way past people to get to them.

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ic31420 · 28 Jan 2020

Astro_Orbiter said:
Like I said, 745's have no electrical connection box, so can only mechanically couple to anything else. No other reason than that I'm afraid, they simply were not designed to work in multiple at all.

So how does the rescue loco control the brakes, or at least get the brakes off?

dk1 · 28 Jan 2020

stonojnr said:
and when was the last time a 90+mk3 set did that ? the only one I can remember involving passengers de-training was on Liverpool Street approaches when a bit of the new overground bridge theyd put in decided to prove Newtons law of gravity, this is 86s & summer of 95-96ish territory when the trains used to just give up in the middle of Essex somewhere for no reason and youd lose hours cooking as the aircon packed up, but at least you could use the toilet if you could fight your way past people to get to them.

Oh I don't know. Last year when the 16:30 Lst-Nrw struck a car on the level crossing at Palgrave (Diss) it was nearly midnight before we where all evacuated. Another had an air leak at Cow Green a few months back on a Sunday afternoon. That too took hours & hours. So many over the years they just disappear from memory.

samuelmorris · 28 Jan 2020

dk1 said:
Oh I don't know. Last year when the 16:30 Lst-Nrw struck a car on the level crossing at Palgrave (Diss) it was nearly midnight before we where all evacuated. Another had an air leak at Cow Green a few months back on a Sunday afternoon. That too took hours & hours. So many over the years they just disappear from memory.

The only incident that sticks in my memory was an LHCS failing between Harold Wood and Brentwood and me being on the 12-car 321 behind which was evacuated at Harold Wood, despite being longer than the platform. We were about 90 late as a result from switching to the TfL side but I don't recall how late the Norwich passengers ultimately were. I think they too were evacuated. Having just looked it up this was 17-Nov-16.

_toommm_ · 28 Jan 2020

ic31420 said:
So how does the rescue loco control the brakes, or at least get the brakes off?

I would have thought it would have been limited to 5mph but just to clear the mainline.

dk1 · 28 Jan 2020

samuelmorris said:
The only incident that sticks in my memory was an LHCS failing between Harold Wood and Brentwood and me being on the 12-car 321 behind which was evacuated at Harold Wood, despite being longer than the platform. We were about 90 late as a result from switching to the TfL side but I don't recall how late the Norwich passengers ultimately were. I think they too were evacuated. Having just looked it up this was 17-Nov-16.

Gosh I've had some classics myself with some very severe delays. Twice in snow sat down around the Flordon area, another at Brentwood. These are pure failures. I think we all look back fondly at the 90/DVTs & 86/DBSOs before them but some impressive incidents have occurred over the years.

trebor79 · 28 Jan 2020

stonojnr said:
a bit of bad luck ? A train gets stuck for 5hrs with passengers on board without lighting,heating,toilets or even hot drinks as they ran out, that they eventually decide to use ladders to get passengers off with because the rescue train coupling was broke, and thats just a bit of bad luck... have they even tested a de-train properly because it sure didnt look like they did given how little anyone seemed to know about what to do next.

and when was the last time a 90+mk3 set did that ? the only one I can remember involving passengers de-training was on Liverpool Street approaches when a bit of the new overground bridge theyd put in decided to prove Newtons law of gravity, this is 86s & summer of 95-96ish territory when the trains used to just give up in the middle of Essex somewhere for no reason and youd lose hours cooking as the aircon packed up, but at least you could use the toilet if you could fight your way past people to get to them.

It's not the first time people have been detrained via ladders and it won't be the last. So one train broke down, it's not really that big a deal is it? It happens.
Unlucky that there was some issue with coupling to the rescue loco. So the.n it becomes a detrain. That's going to take time to organise - people to assist, people to supervise, a train to evacuate the passengers onto, track isolating and making safe.
You could practice a detrain a thousand times, but all of that stuff still needs doing for each individual situation. Risk assessments need to be done, identify the risks to people (beyond the obvious - ground conditions, what other hazards are at the site - cables, mechanical stuff feet could get trapped in etc etc. Is there a biological hazard from any turds in the 4 foot etc etc. Everybody involved needs to be briefed and understand what is required.
I'm not a railwayman, bar messing about with tank engines in a minor heritage line in my youth, but even I can appreciate significant time will elapse between a decision to detrain being made and it actually happening.
So bad luck on the breakdown, bad luck that the rescue loco didn't work out. Everybody was safe and nobody injured or worse, which might not have been the case if people rushed to detrain.
Reports from those on the train don't paint the picture you do. Toilets were working bar a short period and the staff kept people informed as best they could.

Astro_Orbiter · 28 Jan 2020

ic31420 said:
So how does the rescue loco control the brakes, or at least get the brakes off?

Probably with a main res pipe to release the brakes, and perhaps a brake pipe? Not familiAr with the specific ins and outs but there will be a way to do this.

rdlover777 · 29 Jan 2020

Astro_Orbiter said:
Probably with a main res pipe to release the brakes, and perhaps a brake pipe? Not familiAr with the specific ins and outs but there will be a way to do this.

Looking at this picture of the 745, it has two holes on the coupler ringed with what looks like an air tight seal, maybe its similar to how Aventra's can be dragged by a loco since they dont have any electrical boxes on there couplers too.

eastdyke · 29 Jan 2020

So, if I understand correctly, the big beasty Hares can only be rescued by Thunderbird?
In which case how is it proposed to cover the 20 units spread over the GEML and Stansteds with the depot in Norwich?
Clearly total failures would be expected at very few in number but the disruption for each event could be at a cost 4-6 hours (or more) of good service on the route affected.

superjohn · 29 Jan 2020

There is a photo on the Friends of Mid Norfolk Railway Facebook page that shows a class 755 hauling a 745. Sorry for the huge link but it works for me!
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...er.GroupStoriesByActivityEntQuery&__tn__=EH-R
So it would seem they can be coupled even if it is just for a low speed line clearing move. If the class 37 can do the same we could perhaps quietly hope the class 720 will also be able to as well. As mentioned above, there is no electrical connection on a 745 coupler so it only needs a mechanical connection and a means to release the brakes.

Astro_Orbiter · 29 Jan 2020

Yeah no doubt its possible to couple a 755 to a 745, but they cannot be worked normally in service, it would be purely for rescue only, and I'd assume that a thunderbird loco would be just as easy and likely more practical than using a 755. From what I've heard there's going to be a standby loco dossing about the place to cover for failures, because like you say, if a 745 fails at say Harlow, then its a bloomin long way back to Norwich!

F Great Eastern · 29 Jan 2020

What's the issue with passenger information systems? Broke on both 745/755s the last few days, seem to be turned off.

trebor79 · 29 Jan 2020

F Great Eastern said:
Have they given up with passenger information systems? Was on the 745 today and they were turned off and yesterday the same on the 755.

I've just passed another 755 where it was also off.

Was working on the 755 I was on this morning. Can't remember if the auto announcements were on, I tune them out anyway.

dk1 · 29 Jan 2020

F Great Eastern said:
What's the issue with passenger information systems? Broke on both 745/755s the last few days, seem to be turned off.

Software update on Monday night caused lots of issues with it.

Alfie1014 · 29 Jan 2020

samuelmorris said:
The only incident that sticks in my memory was an LHCS failing between Harold Wood and Brentwood and me being on the 12-car 321 behind which was evacuated at Harold Wood, despite being longer than the platform. We were about 90 late as a result from switching to the TfL side but I don't recall how late the Norwich passengers ultimately were. I think they too were evacuated. Having just looked it up this was 17-Nov-16.

And last week when the 16:30 LST-NOR hit a deer near Clayton (pair of 321s) but pax from the front unit had to be de-trained and walked back to the rear unit which was able to return to Ipswich. Difficult situation not least as it had to be done in the dark.

306024 · 29 Jan 2020

dk1 said:
Software update on Monday night caused lots of issues with it.

Familiar story the world over, in all industries. Just that the production line for the railway is pretty much there for all to see, 24/7, so most issues are immediately visible.

LAX54 · 29 Jan 2020

trebor79 said:
It's not the first time people have been detrained via ladders and it won't be the last. So one train broke down, it's not really that big a deal is it? It happens.
Unlucky that there was some issue with coupling to the rescue loco. So the.n it becomes a detrain. That's going to take time to organise - people to assist, people to supervise, a train to evacuate the passengers onto, track isolating and making safe.
You could practice a detrain a thousand times, but all of that stuff still needs doing for each individual situation. Risk assessments need to be done, identify the risks to people (beyond the obvious - ground conditions, what other hazards are at the site - cables, mechanical stuff feet could get trapped in etc etc. Is there a biological hazard from any turds in the 4 foot etc etc. Everybody involved needs to be briefed and understand what is required.
I'm not a railwayman, bar messing about with tank engines in a minor heritage line in my youth, but even I can appreciate significant time will elapse between a decision to detrain being made and it actually happening.
So bad luck on the breakdown, bad luck that the rescue loco didn't work out. Everybody was safe and nobody injured or worse, which might not have been the case if people rushed to detrain.
Reports from those on the train don't paint the picture you do. Toilets were working bar a short period and the staff kept people informed as best they could.

From what we heard, they coupled up, and found an air leak in the emergency coupling, so took it off, and used the second one that was on the loco, only to find it was not compatible/broken, after that of course, it means it will be a long job ! They did locate another coupler, but that was quite a distance away. I am assuming they then did the risk assessment process to detrain, and that is never a 5 min process !
With hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, and I am not sure why the Railway does not have it, the Public seems to think it does ! Maybe it could have been done a different way, but it was the first major 745 failure, and a steep learning curve for everyone, no doubt lessons learnt, and rescues will be revised? Up to now the 745's have been good, with only the odd niggly issue.

LAX54 · 29 Jan 2020

eastdyke said:
So, if I understand correctly, the big beasty Hares can only be rescued by Thunderbird?
In which case how is it proposed to cover the 20 units spread over the GEML and Stansteds with the depot in Norwich?
Clearly total failures would be expected at very few in number but the disruption for each event could be at a cost 4-6 hours (or more) of good service on the route affected.

Not sure of the issue at the moment, but there is a 'bar' on assistance generally, but 755's have been rescued by another 755, albeit at 5mph, I assume at some point the restriction will be removed, but if you have to rescue a 12 car 321 or a 360, there are similar assistance problems !

LAX54 · 29 Jan 2020

dk1 said:
Software update on Monday night caused lots of issues with it.

After the Stadler update problem was discovered, didn't they roll back to a previous version to 'solve' it, the 755's seemed a bit better later in the morning, well a little better

Southern Dvr · 29 Jan 2020

Because nobody self detrained it’s unlikely the RAIB will be too fussed.

The GOBLIN diverts made things much complicated because they could only reach the NLL by going bi-di along the Down Main. Threading them around the already FUBAR state of the line must have been a massive headache.

The poor reliability of Stadler and Azuma units is a disgrace and somebody needs to own it and deal with it.

20atthemagnet · 29 Jan 2020

ic31420 said:
So how does the rescue loco control the brakes, or at least get the brakes off?

Quite simply, it doesn’t

depending on the type of failure you either:

1. isolate all the brakes on the 745 unit.. the loco then drags it freely.

2. if you have no main res air isolate the parking brake, and again drag it freely.

Both at a maximum of 5 mph due to there being no brake continuity through the whole movement. Having done it myself it’s not something you want to get wrong, and why this is often a last last last resort.

Have to say though great door to choose next to an AWS magnet :lol:

bahnause · 29 Jan 2020

20atthemagnet said:
Quite simply, it doesn’t

depending on the type of failure you either:

1. isolate all the brakes on the 745 unit.. the loco then drags it freely.

2. if you have no main res air isolate the parking brake, and again drag it freely.

Both at a maximum of 5 mph due to there being no brake continuity through the whole movement. Having done it myself it’s not something you want to get wrong.

That's very different to every other Stadler product I know. Actually to every train I know...

trebor79 · 29 Jan 2020

20atthemagnet said:
Quite simply, it doesn’t

depending on the type of failure you either:

1. isolate all the brakes on the 745 unit.. the loco then drags it freely.

2. if you have no main res air isolate the parking brake, and again drag it freely.

Both at a maximum of 5 mph due to there being no brake continuity through the whole movement. Having done it myself it’s not something you want to get wrong, and why this is often a last last last resort.

Have to say though great door to choose next to an AWS magnet

bahnause said:
That's very different to every other Stadler product I know. Actually to every train I know...

It must be possible to control the brakes from the loco, they weren't hauled at 5mph all the way from Switzerland/Poland to Crown Point. Plenty of videos of them hammering along the GEML behind a 37.

Dave1987 · 29 Jan 2020

20atthemagnet said:
Quite simply, it doesn’t

depending on the type of failure you either:

1. isolate all the brakes on the 745 unit.. the loco then drags it freely.

2. if you have no main res air isolate the parking brake, and again drag it freely.

Both at a maximum of 5 mph due to there being no brake continuity through the whole movement. Having done it myself it’s not something you want to get wrong, and why this is often a last last last resort.

Have to say though great door to choose next to an AWS magnet

This is simply not the case with these Stadlers! They have a brake reservoir pipe going the length of the train from the coupler. So a suitably equipped loco or other Stadler can attach and operate the brakes on the failed train so it can be dragged at full line speed.

samuelmorris · 29 Jan 2020

Southern Dvr said:
The poor reliability of Stadler and Azuma units is a disgrace and somebody needs to own it and deal with it.

Not really for this thread but there is worse new stock than the Azumas. For what it's worth they are the most reliable 80x fleets currently. Reliability of the 755s is admittedly poor thus far, hopefully it will improve.

LAX54 · 29 Jan 2020

20atthemagnet said:
Quite simply, it doesn’t

depending on the type of failure you either:

1. isolate all the brakes on the 745 unit.. the loco then drags it freely.

2. if you have no main res air isolate the parking brake, and again drag it freely.

Both at a maximum of 5 mph due to there being no brake continuity through the whole movement. Having done it myself it’s not something you want to get wrong, and why this is often a last last last resort.

Have to say though great door to choose next to an AWS magnet

If TBIRD Driver came onto the Siggie here and said, all attached but no brakes on 755/745 etc, and will run at 5mph, think he would be told, that he would be going nowhere at all !

dk1 · 29 Jan 2020

swills said:
If TBIRD Driver came onto the Siggie here and said, all attached but no brakes on 755/745 etc, and will run at 5mph, think he would be told, that he would be going nowhere at all !

Exactly mate. Front/rear must have a working brake or it goes nowhere unless I think its bar coupled.

Alfie1014 · 29 Jan 2020

Southern Dvr said:
Because nobody self detrained it’s unlikely the RAIB will be too fussed

Ian Prosser has tweeted that they will be meeting GA and Stadler on Thursday.

47421 · 29 Jan 2020

Alfie1014 said:
Ian Prosser has tweeted that they will be meeting GA and Stadler on Thursday.

yep, was only a matter of luck that this happened morning peak/daylight hours, if had been evening/in darkness much more likely passengers would have taken things into own hands to get home and situation would have been much more messy

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