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Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

transmanche

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What a depressingly bland livery that'll show up the dirt in no time.
Thankfully, that's not the actual livery to be used on the trains. Buried in the FAQs, Nexus says:
Who will decide on the new livery?
The Metro brand has been an iconic source of local pride for 40 years – we haven’t decided the new livery but it will reflect this. The images of the new fleet show it in white but Nexus will make a final decision based on feedback from the public.


I personally think that the livery the Merseyrail units are being delivered in is much more appealing and would have needed minimal tweaking to suit the current TW Metro corporate scheme!
I agree. The Merseyrail 777 livery is almost perfect for T&W Metro.
 
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Killingworth

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Virtually no seating then, looks like it's going to be a bit of a pain coming back from Newcastle to South Shields with a young child, might have to start getting the X34, or god forbid, the 27 more, at least we'd have a seat.

I wonder how long it will take for a rethink? May not tempt many out of cars and cabs for the airport.
 

Killingworth

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Top story in the Chronicle; https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/new-metro-fleet-passengers-reliability-17645037

New Metro fleet will offer 'quantum leap' for passengers fed up with delays and cancelled trains
The 42 new Metro trains being built by Stadler should be 15 times more reliable than the tired, failure-prone carriages that currently serve Tyne and Wear


By
Daniel HollandLocal Democracy Reporter
  • 14:30, 28 JAN 2020

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The moment Metro announced their new fleet of trains would be built by Stadler

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The newly-unveiled Tyne and Wear Metro fleet will provide a “quantum leap” for passengers who are fed up with delayed and cancelled trains.

Designs for the 42 new Metro trains were revealed on Tuesday morning, as Swiss firm Stadler was confirmed as the winner of a £700m contract to build and maintain the fleet as well as a new depot in Gosforth.

The new trains, which will be gradually introduced from 2022 to 2024, will be 15 times more reliable than the existing carriages and boast features such as wifi, USB plug sockets, air conditioning, and heated floors.

Coun Martin Gannon, leader of Gateshead Council and chair of the North East Joint Transport Committee, said it was a “magical time” for the Metro.

0_CFR-NJL_280120train_01JPG.jpg

Stadler will build the new fleet of Metro trains - and this is what they will look like (Image: Nexus)
He added that Nexus engineers would work “flat out” to keep the existing fleet running until the new trains arrive and that the service’s reputation had been “badly damaged” by regular failures.

But Coun Gannon said that the upgraded models would be a “quantum leap” in terms of reliability.

Rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris added: “For accessibility, for capacity, and for modern day living these are going to be quite extraordinary trains.”

The new fleet will carry 600 passengers each and include retractable steps at every door, as well as information screens throughout.

There will be four wheelchair spaces per train, plus areas for bikes, buggies, and luggage.

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Stadler CEO Thomas Ahlburg, whose firm beat rivals CAF and Hitachi to win the huge contract, said: “You are going to see that is very easy to enter them.

"We have sliding steps so the famous ‘mind the gap’ is going to be of less importance.

“The next thing you are going to realise on the Metro trains is that you are going to have lots of space and it is going to be light. It is not going to be a dark, closed compartment - it will be open and wide with lots of glass.

“Then you are going to have specific areas for prams and wheelchairs, and others for bikes. You know that you can easily fit in and feel comfortable.

0_metro2JPG.jpg

New Metro design revealed
“They will have more capacity for 600 passengers.”

The new fleet is also expected to provide a major environmental boost, consuming 30% less energy than current Metro trains.

Dr Ahlburg added: “They are going to be around for 30 to 40 years as we have seen with the existing trains, so that is already good for the environment.

“The next element is that they will be excellent from an energy consumption point of view. We use aluminium, a lightweight material, so they will be significantly less heavy than the existing trains. If you have less weight, you need less energy to move it back and forth.

“That, plus the combination of very efficient motors, is going to be very good for the consumption of energy.”
 

Paul_10

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I wonder how long it will take for a rethink? May not tempt many out of cars and cabs for the airport.

Should be no rethink, its what the passengers wanted so they better get used to how it is for the next 35 years.

Right obsession with quicker boarding times also which is no point as even Nexus says, the timetable won't be improved with this new fleet. The off peak passengers won't be happy with less seating but the peak passengers might as there is more standing room. Personally it should of been a mixture of bay seating and longitudinal seating. Also 4 wheelchair bays seems excessive too me of space imo.
 

transmanche

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Right obsession with quicker boarding times also which is no point as even Nexus says, the timetable won't be improved with this new fleet.
They didn't say the timetable wouldn't be improved, just that they won't be increasing the speed limit above the current 80km/h.

In fact, the hint is "we'll see how it pans out when they new trains are introduced". From the New Train FAQs.
Will the new trains improve journey times?
The new trains give us the potential to improve journey times albeit there are no firm plans to do so at present on the basis that the short gaps between stations we have means it's not practical to go faster than we do today.


Also 4 wheelchair bays seems excessive too me of space imo.
It's the same number that the current fleet have.
 

thenorthern

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Given the fleet was all built for when the network first opened how did the metro cope with the extensions to Newcastle Airport and Sunderland without ordering new stock?
 

Killingworth

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Given the fleet was all built for when the network first opened how did the metro cope with the extensions to Newcastle Airport and Sunderland without ordering new stock?

Memory says there were more frequent trains from South Gosforth through the core to Heworth. Seemed to be every 3 or 4 minutes! My dad used to boast he could get to Marks & Spencers in town or a supermarket in Gateshead, do his shopping and be back in an hour. They seem to be much less frequent today.
 

deanmachine

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Should be no rethink, its what the passengers wanted so they better get used to how it is for the next 35 years.

Right obsession with quicker boarding times also which is no point as even Nexus says, the timetable won't be improved with this new fleet. The off peak passengers won't be happy with less seating but the peak passengers might as there is more standing room. Personally it should of been a mixture of bay seating and longitudinal seating. Also 4 wheelchair bays seems excessive too me of space imo.

Probably 4 is excessive but they can be used as buggy bays too, so it should be fine. I think a mix of seating would've been better too, it's what I answered in the consultation, I think. Yes more room for peak is great, but I've never actually not been able to get on the Metro, even when a train has been rammed. I don't see why that much standing space is even needed, unless they're binning off the peak trains too, it's like they're compromising the whole fleet for 1 football game a week.
 

transmanche

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Given the fleet was all built for when the network first opened how did the metro cope with the extensions to Newcastle Airport and Sunderland without ordering new stock?
By reducing frequencies.

(Deregulation of buses hit the Metro hard and ridership fell dramatically. The whole Mtero scheme was designed around integration, with buses feeding into the Metro. After deregulation, the buses were competing directly with Metro. So, what was originally a 10-min daytime off-peak frequency on each line, became a 12-min frequency. The Red and Blue lines disappeared, taking most of their services with them. So there were plenty of spare trains to operate the extension.)
 

mde

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Also 4 wheelchair bays seems excessive too me of space imo.
Why? The spaces can be used by others when they aren't required by a wheelchair user (albeit, they, quite rightly must be given up on request).

Wheelchair users don't necessarily have the luxury of sitting anywhere else on the train, providing a reasonable number of spaces isn't an unreasonable ask.
 

hacman

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They didn't say the timetable wouldn't be improved, just that they won't be increasing the speed limit above the current 80km/h.

In fact, the hint is "we'll see how it pans out when they new trains are introduced". From the New Train FAQs.

No sense in them highlighting this yet, until the final performance profile of the new fleet is properly understood, especially when there will be a transition period where both new and old fleets are in use.

Only when Nexus have a good idea of how the trains interact with the infrastructure will they know if it's worth increasing speeds in service, though it's a pretty safe bet this will happen between Pelaw and Sunderland.
 

Tetchytyke

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If true the political guff at the decision is really ill-informed...

Ben "walking lobotomy" Houchen talking crap? Say it ain't so! As for Emma Lewell-Buck, well, she makes Ben look well-informed and balanced.

Some rather strange justifications, as following that logic ALL trains and indeed buses would have sideways seats!

Most mass-transit trains do already.

Virtually no seating then, looks like it's going to be a bit of a pain coming back from Newcastle to South Shields with a young child

We'll have to see. The current trains don't use the space efficiently, so longitudinal seating doesn't have to mean less seating overall.

That said, I can't help but think mixed seating, like on the S8s in London, would have been better.

Also 4 wheelchair bays seems excessive too me of space imo.

The current trains have 2 wheelchair spaces per Metrocar (4 in total per double set), and always have had. And they're used!

I've never actually not been able to get on the Metro, even when a train has been rammed

It's not an infrequent occurrence out here on the Coast loop, especially when the peak extras get canned. Elbows out at Northumberland Park, people left behind by Benton.
 
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Paul_10

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When I mentioned about the 4 wheelchair bays being excessive I was under the impression that the spaces for bikes and buggeys were going to be seperate from the wheelchair spaces unlike the current arrangement where the 4 spaces were shared. Apparently according to the sort out of the metro group there will be a fly through of the interior so we can see for sure what ideas they got for the space.

On a side note, these cars are going to be slightly bigger than the current fleet which is interesting as for sure some platform mirrors will have to be moved. Felling platform 1 comes to mind.
 

ModernRailways

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When I mentioned about the 4 wheelchair bays being excessive I was under the impression that the spaces for bikes and buggeys were going to be seperate from the wheelchair spaces unlike the current arrangement where the 4 spaces were shared. Apparently according to the sort out of the metro group there will be a fly through of the interior so we can see for sure what ideas they got for the space.

They will be separate. It's 4 wheelchair bays, with iirc 4 'multifunction' bays. They will have tip down seats. Each set of doors will have one of these bays basically.

On a side note, these cars are going to be slightly bigger than the current fleet which is interesting as for sure some platform mirrors will have to be moved. Felling platform 1 comes to mind.

The train length is overall longer, but there will be in cab monitors. Platform mirrors won't necessarily need moved, it will just be the stopping markers. It should also be noted, that the train will be able to 'overhang' the platform because it now has a full width cab and the first set of doors are further down the train. I'm unsure on whether dispatch will be via in-cab cctv or using the current method.

One thing missing from the current design mockups is any kind of grabrails along the ceiling as well as grab straps.
 

Chester1

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Gotta love the "should be built in Ingerlund" comments on social media. The Hitachi plant would not have been built if that brigade had been in charge of the IEP and would not have been given the EMR order. Its not good that Hitachi has let 250 contractors go but its investing to do more parts of the process at Newton Aycliffe which will help keep permenant jobs there.
 

superkev

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I too would have preferred an S8-stock style seating arrangement. And I said that during one of the consultation exercises. But, apparently, "tube-style" longitudinal seating is what the public wants.

From a Newcastle Chronicle article back in December 2017, "New Metro trains WILL have Tube-style seating after decision by transport bosses":
With London also standardizing on longitudinal seating I wonder if one of the many safety people will pick up on the reduction in safety compared with the now obligatory overhigh backed seats.
K
 

transmanche

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With London also standardizing on longitudinal seating I wonder if one of the many safety people will pick up on the reduction in safety compared with the now obligatory overhigh backed seats.
Er, Metro trains have a maximum speed of 80km/h, not 225km/h.
 

hacman

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The train length is overall longer, but there will be in cab monitors. Platform mirrors won't necessarily need moved, it will just be the stopping markers. It should also be noted, that the train will be able to 'overhang' the platform because it now has a full width cab and the first set of doors are further down the train. I'm unsure on whether dispatch will be via in-cab cctv or using the current method.

CCTV dispatch is planned, as this improves both safety and efficiency. I'd imagine platform mirrors and monitors will then be phased out when the old fleet is retired, as it is one less thing to worry about.

Gotta love the "should be built in Ingerlund" comments on social media. The Hitachi plant would not have been built if that brigade had been in charge of the IEP and would not have been given the EMR order. Its not good that Hitachi has let 250 contractors go but its investing to do more parts of the process at Newton Aycliffe which will help keep permenant jobs there.

This is crazy really. Lots of people who clearly have no idea about what building a train involves.

By Hitachi's own admission, those 250 people would have gone regardless of the Metro contract outcome, and we've not actually seen anything other than some vauge promises to workers at the plant that these would have been built there.

If anything it would be far more likely that Italy would have done a large amount of the work, seeing as AnsaldoBreda is where the majority of Hitachi's ubran rail IP and experience has come from.

I'd be interested to know how many of the people moaning about this actually use Metro on a daily basis, and how many of them have British built TVs, kitchen appliances, cars, etc.

A few jobs (potentially) at Newton Aycliffe is a drop in the ocean compared to the countless jobs and economic benefit the operation of this fleet will support for the region over its lifetime. I doubt if we ended up with a sub-par product the commuters of Tyne and Wear would take much comfort in knowing that Dale from Shildon was able to keep his job as an electrical fitter for an extra 2 years.
 

sprinterguy

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I too would have preferred an S8-stock style seating arrangement. And I said that during one of the consultation exercises. But, apparently, "tube-style" longitudinal seating is what the public wants.

From a Newcastle Chronicle article back in December 2017, "New Metro trains WILL have Tube-style seating after decision by transport bosses":
Ah, hadn't realised that fully linear seating had already been specified - The procurement seems to have been going on for so long that I've lost track a bit.
Thankfully, that's not the actual livery to be used on the trains. Buried in the FAQs, Nexus says:
Well that's good news.
 

thenorthern

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Is the train order number final or is there a possibility of an option for more trains in the contract?

I only ask because for many years there has been talk of the Leamside Line reopening to Metro trains as well as a new line to the MetroCentre. While I can't see either happening anytime soon if one was to be built new trains would be needed.
 

ModernRailways

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Is the train order number final or is there a possibility of an option for more trains in the contract?

I only ask because for many years there has been talk of the Leamside Line reopening to Metro trains as well as a new line to the MetroCentre. While I can't see either happening anytime soon if one was to be built new trains would be needed.

There is the possibility for more cars to be ordered. As part of this, Nexus are making separate business cases for further expansion of the system.
 

transmanche

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Virtually no seating then, looks like it's going to be a bit of a pain coming back from Newcastle to South Shields with a young child, might have to start getting the X34, or god forbid, the 27 more, at least we'd have a seat.
I was bored enough this morning to count the seats in the walkthrough visualisation at tyneandwearmetro.nose.ch. I make it:
  • 104 seats
  • 12 tip-up seats in the wheelchair areas
  • 16 'bum rests' in the multi-use bike/buggy/luggage areas
That's 116 seats and 16 'bum rests' in total. The current stock has 128 seats in a complete train. So yes, there will be a small reduction of 12 seats per train: from 128 to 116 seats per train. But it's hardly a case of there being "virtually no seating".

The current trains don't use the space efficiently, so longitudinal seating doesn't have to mean less seating overall.
Indeed, the centre cabs 'waste' a lot of potential seating space.

Edit: I miscounted.
 
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Paul_10

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I must be blind because I don't see any tip up seats in the wheelchair areas? They look like 'bum seats' too me.

One positive these trains will have will be major events, especially the great North run crowds.
 

Tetchytyke

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But, apparently, "tube-style" longitudinal seating is what the public wants.

"Do you want more standing space?" was, I believe, the question. Ah well.

That said, the longest regular metro journeys are all 30 minutes or less, so sideways seating isn't a disaster. Works fine on the tube, even for trips out into zone 6.

If anything it would be far more likely that Italy would have done a large amount of the work

I can't remember where I saw it, but Hitachi said it was mostly going to be built at the AnsaldaBreda plant.

The Chronicle are reporting they priced themselves out by adding a huge Brexit financial clause to the contract. Which would further imply the work was to be done in Italy, as if it was built in England using British parts Brexit wouldn't matter.
 
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transmanche

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I must be blind because I don't see any tip up seats in the wheelchair areas? They look like 'bum seats' too me.
My apologies, you're absolutely right. They are 'bum rests' too, I don't know why I didn't spot that earlier!

So that makes it:
  • 104 seats
  • 28 'bum rests' in the wheelchair and multi-use bike/buggy/luggage areas
A reduction of 24 seats, but a lot more 'bum rests' (an effective increase of about 15-20 per train).
 

transmanche

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"Do you want more standing space?" was, I believe, the question. Ah well.
Oh you cynic, you! ;)

I think it was a fair consultation. Different options were offered and people asked to choose which layout they preferred:
  • Linear seating: with Class 378-style (or "tube-style) longitudinal seating
  • Mixed layout 1: with a seating layout similar to the existing Metrocars
  • Mixed layout 2: with LU S8-Stock-style seating
53% of people thought the linear seating layout was better than the existing layout (with 31% strongly agreeing). 32% of people disagreed (with 11% strongly disagreeing). So that does seem to indicate there was a marked preference for longitudinal seating. (Even though I opted for Mixed Layout 2!)

Screen Shot 2020-01-29 at 15.48.26.png
Image shows plans views of the three potential train layouts.
Source:https://www.nexus.org.uk/sites/default/files/Metro trains for the future.pdf
 

Killingworth

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Oh you cynic, you! ;)

I think it was a fair consultation. Different options were offered and people asked to choose which layout they preferred:
  • Linear seating: with Class 378-style (or "tube-style) longitudinal seating
  • Mixed layout 1: with a seating layout similar to the existing Metrocars
  • Mixed layout 2: with LU S8-Stock-style seating
53% of people thought the linear seating layout was better than the existing layout (with 31% strongly agreeing). 32% of people disagreed (with 11% strongly disagreeing). So that does seem to indicate there was a marked preference for longitudinal seating. (Even though I opted for Mixed Layout 2!)

View attachment 73243
Image shows plans views of the three potential train layouts.
Source:https://www.nexus.org.uk/sites/default/files/Metro trains for the future.pdf

Bit like that referendum. 47% in the consultation didn't prefer the linear seating to what's there now. Other mixed options could have been considered. As one who'd normally only use the Metro to go for about 5 stops I'm quite happy to stand. lf going to the coast, the airport, or through to Sunderland I'd find those linear seats unattractive.

I suspect the majority using the Metro don't go very far very often and that might sway their votes. I note the mixed layouts don't have seats facing each other so the feet on seats issue would be resolved. My mixed option 3 would have included 2/3 the train length as the linear option with about 1/3 Option 1, one side of the train facing forward and the other facing back.
 

Mojo

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Mixed layout 2: with LU S8-Stock-style seating
Looking at the diagram you have kindly provided, Mixed layout 2 is not the same as S8 stock as on S8 all of the transverse seats are arranged in bays of four, whereas that picture shows the transverse seats to be airline style.
 

transmanche

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Bit like that referendum. 47% in the consultation didn't prefer the linear seating to what's there now.
Not at all. The fact you have five options rather than three (remain, leave or not voting) means you get a clearer picture.

Screen Shot 2020-01-29 at 22.23.51.png
Image shows a bar chart of passenger preferences comparing longitudinal seating with the current layout.

You have 53% that prefer it, 32% who don't prefer it and 15% who don't care ('neither agree nor disagree'). But what's noticeable is that people who prefer it tend to have a stronger feeling in favour of it. The number of people who 'strongly agree' is just about the same as all of those who diasagree. And then there's an additional 22% who agree that the new layout is better.

If you strip out the 'neither agree nor disagree' group (the ones who didn't vote, in your referendum analogy), that leaves you with 62% saying the longitudinal layout is better and 38% disagreeing. That's pretty conclusive. It's not what I would have preferred, but it's "the will of the people"!

Looking at the diagram you have kindly provided, Mixed layout 2 is not the same as S8 stock as on S8 all of the transverse seats are arranged in bays of four, whereas that picture shows the transverse seats to be airline style.
True, but that was just the nearest equivalent I could think of. And as @Killingworth highlighted, it would also have solved the 'feet on seats' issue.
 

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I know it's a proof of concept, but I'd definitely like to be travelling around Tyneside at 200km/h!

(Whilst simultaneously being stationary at Central)
 

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