How could Northern & TPE services be reorganised and could 365s be brought in?

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2020

Potentially they could do something like give the Manchester-Huddersfield-wherever stopping services back to Northern, releasing 185s to strengthen TPE services, with DMUs released to do that by reducing under-wires running on Northern by simplifying services.

Precisely how remains to be seen, but there is a fair bit of under-wires DMU running on Northern that could be rationalised out i.e. split into two services, a DMU bit and an EMU bit. One is Barrow/Windermere though there are others and it remains to be seen which they will choose.

I would bet on the EMUs under discussion being 365s, the Government own them outright (no lease costs) and so might as well do something with them! They generally seem popular units.

It's a bit of a complex web though!

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woodhouse122 · 29 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I would bet on the EMUs under discussion being 365s, the Government own them outright (no lease costs) and so might as well do something with them! They generally seem popular units.

It's a bit of a complex web though!

Seems a bit daft bringing in 365s which will mean another round of staff training leading to driver and guard shortages again ,keeping the class 319s in service til the west midlands 323s become available would be a better idea (and getting CAF to speed up introduction of the remaining 195 and 331 units too )

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2020

woodhouse122 said:
Seems a bit daft bringing in 365s which will mean another round of staff training leading to driver and guard shortages again ,keeping the class 319s in service til the west midlands 323s become available would be a better idea (and getting CAF to speed up introduction of the remaining 195 and 331 units too )

There have to be some quick wins - the 323s are not due for ages, and they seem to want additional EMUs on top of the 319s, not to replace them.

158756 · 29 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
There have to be some quick wins - the 323s are not due for ages, and they seem to want additional EMUs on top of the 319s, not to replace them.

Where are they going to use them though, there are few electrified routes and fewer still capable of taking more than six or even four coaches. Northern actually needs fewer EMUs than Arriva planned because Windermere isn't being electrified, the extra Macclesfield trains will never happen and 6 cars for Airedale seems to be off as well.

The main shortage of trains is a shortage of diesels, and until they say otherwise, based on East Coast my expectation is that OLR will make this worse by abandoning the franchise commitment for the extra 170s or equivalents.

365 Networker · 29 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I would bet on the EMUs under discussion being 365s, the Government own them outright (no lease costs) and so might as well do something with them! They generally seem popular units.

They are also all PRM compliant and recently refurbished, so could be brought into service relatively quickly.

Meerkat · 29 Jan 2020

365 Networker said:
They are also all PRM compliant and recently refurbished, so could be brought into service relatively quickly.

Is there depot space for them??

Kieran1990 · 29 Jan 2020

Could we see Class 365’s moved into Yorkshire to move Class 331’s West and removed the ever ageing Class 321/322 off the triangle?

class 331’s can bolster existing services but also allow
Crewe-Lime St Via Eccles
Southport- Ald Edge
to be split again, removing 2tph from Castleford at the same time.
Any other DMU’s fully under the wires in the North West?

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2020

As a real speculative outlier, if staff training is a concern, how about 365s to LNR and their 319s to Northern? That said you don't want them, while the /2s have a very nice seat layout (nicest the TOC has - nice thick-base-and-backed Chapmans in a 2+2 layout with 6 rows per section rather than the usual 7) the heating has failed on half of them and repair is said to require the floor lifting so a costly job.

I still reckon this means 365s to Northern, though, and possibly lopping back of DMU services so EMUs can be used instead, perhaps something like Barrow back to Lancaster, Windermere back to Oxenholme, and a separate Manchester to Lancaster, Oxenholme or Carlisle EMU. Or nowt, as that's then one of the two off Castlefield.

What other DMUs under the wires are there? Fewer than there used to be, certainly.

4-SUB 4732 · 29 Jan 2020

There are 24 4-car trains in the Airedale and Leeds electrified area. If 24 365s made it there, you'd struggle with 6 car ops.

Has due consideration been given to the likes of the North West on the grounds that they offer much better acceleration for the stuff via Gatley, Prestbury and such? Surely also Blackpool to Manchester Vic etc.

If all of the 365s go over, that leaves GN short for the Baldock shuttles and some Peterborough stuff. 379s offer the solution, with some 387s sent back 'south' under some form of joint pool between GN and SN/GX.

319s can be removed and I'm sure many will be happy...

Bletchleyite · 29 Jan 2020

4-SUB 4732 said:
There are 24 4-car trains in the Airedale and Leeds electrified area. If 24 365s made it there, you'd struggle with 6 car ops.

Has due consideration been given to the likes of the North West on the grounds that they offer much better acceleration for the stuff via Gatley, Prestbury and such? Surely also Blackpool to Manchester Vic etc.

If all of the 365s go over, that leaves GN short for the Baldock shuttles and some Peterborough stuff. 379s offer the solution, with some 387s sent back 'south' under some form of joint pool between GN and SN/GX.

319s can be removed and I'm sure many will be happy...

I think we're talking of the spare 365s, not the ones presently in service.

I'm also not sure about replacing 319s - the announcement seems to clearly refer to extra capacity.

brad465 · 29 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
Is there depot space for them??

Where they're currently stored off lease is within/near Northern operating routes, if someone's prepared to electrify the sidings involved that is. Either that or make sure no DMUs are being stored in the electrified sidings around the Crewe complex and swap them around.

JonathanH · 29 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
There have to be some quick wins - the 323s are not due for ages, and they seem to want additional EMUs on top of the 319s, not to replace them.

They are rapidly handing back 319s as 331s take their place. If they needed more electric stock they would be retaining 319s.

In another thread you are talking about cutting back services. Putting 365s in service doesn't make sense at all.

4-SUB 4732 · 30 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I think we're talking of the spare 365s, not the ones presently in service.

I'm also not sure about replacing 319s - the announcement seems to clearly refer to extra capacity.

I am aware, but the spares aren't enough for Airedale and Leeds - Doncaster unless you perhaps draft in Renatus 321s to have a decent train instead of 331s so they can go across to the North West...

Bantamzen · 30 Jan 2020

Kieran1990 said:
Could we see Class 365’s moved into Yorkshire to move Class 331’s West and removed the ever ageing Class 321/322 off the triangle?

class 331’s can bolster existing services but also allow
Crewe-Lime St Via Eccles
Southport- Ald Edge
to be split again, removing 2tph from Castleford at the same time.
Any other DMU’s fully under the wires in the North West?

4-SUB 4732 said:
I am aware, but the spares aren't enough for Airedale and Leeds - Doncaster unless you perhaps draft in Renatus 321s to have a decent train instead of 331s so they can go across to the North West...

The long term plan for the Aire / Wharfe triangle was to operate some doubled up 331/0s on the peaks to allow 6 car working, subject to the necessary platform lengthening & P0 at Leeds. Because of the delays to these the 331/1s were drafted in to continue with 4 car working throughout, with the longer term plan to swap 331/1s for 331/0s when 6 car working becomes viable. Throwing the 365s at the triangle may scupper these plans altogether, not to mention adding yet more driving training requirements.

As for the Renatus 321s, don't they have problems of their own? The 321/322s are being readied for release because they are becoming increasingly unreliable. I'm not sure replacing one set of unreliable units with another is the answer here.

Greybeard33 · 30 Jan 2020

JonathanH said:
They are rapidly handing back 319s as 331s take their place. If they needed more electric stock they would be retaining 319s.

In another thread you are talking about cutting back services. Putting 365s in service doesn't make sense at all.

Quite. 365s are 4x20m units like the 319s, unsuited to the infrastructure in the North. 80m trains do not provide enough peak capacity working singly, but lengthening platforms to 160m would be very costly and take far too long. 143m platforms, to take double 331/0s or 323s, are a more realistic objective, with SDO at some of the lower footfall stations. Long term the EMU fleet should be standardised around 23/24m carriage length with a mix of 3- and 4-car units - 323s, 331s and 333s.

Within a few months, Northern should have all 43 331s in service and all of the current 17 323s and 16 333s refurbished. With a few 319s and 321/322s retained until the additional 17 323s are cascaded from WMT next year, Northern should have plenty of EMU capacity to work all the existing electrified routes, pending a new platform lengthening programme.

Retraining traincrew and maintenance technicians on 365s would be an unnecessary diversion of resources, bringing the risk of more disruption due to driver shortage.

Bletchleyite · 30 Jan 2020

You are however missing a very important point - the Government own the 365s outright, which means no lease costs. That may be enough for a TOC which is very much on a budget.

nr758123 · 30 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Potentially they could do something like give the Manchester-Huddersfield-wherever stopping services back to Northern, releasing 185s to strengthen TPE services, with DMUs released to do that by reducing under-wires running on Northern by simplifying services.

Does Northern have anything with the performance characteristics of the Class 185s to get a stopping service from Stalybridge to Huddersfield before the following express catches up with it?

Greybeard33 · 30 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
You are however missing a very important point - the Government own the 365s outright, which means no lease costs. That may be enough for a TOC which is very much on a budget.

But surely OLR/DfT will have to honour the lease agreements with Porterbrook and Angel for the 323s and 333s respectively, which presumably run to the ARN franchise end date in 2025?

As far as the 319s, 321s and 322s are concerned, they are only worth the scrap value to the ROSCO when returned, so DfT is in a very strong bargaining position regarding temporary lease extensions.

Bletchleyite · 30 Jan 2020

nr758123 said:
Does Northern have anything with the performance characteristics of the Class 185s to get a stopping service from Stalybridge to Huddersfield before the following express catches up with it?

Class 195s seem to me to accelerate even faster than Class 185s due to the mechanical transmission.

How could Northern & TPE services be reorganised and could 365s be brought in?

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