4O05, 07:15 Birch Coppice Freightliner to Southampton M.C.T derailed at Eastleigh (28/01)

swt_passenger · 29 Jan 2020

pompeyfan said:
Looks like XC have managed some sort of access overnight, so they must have been using South junction. Bet that section of track hasn’t seen this much use in several years!

It’s difficult to work out exactly what happened from RTT, but the sudden appearance of times after St Denys means westbound moves must have gone via Fareham. The unit for the 0705 off Reading didn’t run, it was provided using the “Q” path from Central Rivers.

Looks like a departure from “Eastleigh TRSMD” isn’t reported on RTT if the south curve gets used?

I thought it odd, given the notice there was, that there were no STP moves shown in RTT, would that not normally be done for ECS moves happening the day after such an incident?

RailUK Forums

edwin_m · 29 Jan 2020

pdeaves said:
It's probable that no one knows properly at this stage. Even if they did, it may be ill-advised to publicise it yet until all relevant parties are happy. After all, there may be joint responsibility somewhere that needs to be apportioned satisfactorily.

Not wanting to speculate on this one, but several recent freight derailments have been caused by combinations of factors. So for example there might be a track defect which doesn't cause a problem unless a train comes along with uneven wheel loadings, which in turn could be due to either a bogie defect or uneven loading of the containers.

theironroad · 29 Jan 2020

I forsee that disruption will continue tomorrow even if there is a partial reopening overnight.

kristiang85 · 29 Jan 2020

HamworthyGoods said:
Travel on any high peak Portsmouth line service and you will see the middle seat being used on the 450s in the same way as the middle seat was used on the 423s before them.

I do a lot, and I often see people preferring to stand than squeeze in those seats.

Taunton · 29 Jan 2020

edwin_m said:
Not wanting to speculate on this one, but several recent freight derailments have been caused by combinations of factors.

That's generally true of accidents in all transport modes. The aviation world calls it "swiss cheese", in that all the random holes in different slices of cheese have to occasionally line up to let the issue slip through what is commonly very expensive and structured multiple layers of responsibility and supervision. Same elsewhere. The desire of the cheap media, and politicians, to reduce it to an over-simplistic "it was 'im wot done it" one-liner is generally inaccurate.

DarloRich · 29 Jan 2020

Taunton said:
That's generally true of accidents in all transport modes. The aviation world calls it "swiss cheese", in that all the random holes in different slices of cheese have to occasionally line up to let the issue slip through what is commonly very expensive and structured multiple layers of responsibility and supervision. Same elsewhere. The desire of the cheap media, and politicians, to reduce it to an over-simplistic "it was 'im wot done it" one-liner is generally inaccurate.

it is rare we agree! We do here.

pompeyfan · 29 Jan 2020

theironroad said:
I forsee that disruption will continue tomorrow even if there is a partial reopening overnight.

yep I agree, last wagon not expected to be rerailed until 1700 at the earliest, then the repairs to infrastructure need to be implemented. I’ll eat my hat if the track is given back for anything close to normal running on all 4 lines, that’s not to mention the issues coming from crew and stock displacement during the day.

38Cto15E · 29 Jan 2020

This looks a similar incident to the one at Whitacre with the Birch Coppice to Felixstowe intermodal.

Snow1964 · 29 Jan 2020

I wonder if they will weigh those first few containers before apportioning blame, common sense suggests locos are heavy, and if that got across, how much weight was in those initial containers

What has made me wonder further is it seems to be taking a long time in busy location to re-rail the train, especially in a location where a massive rail crane could be brought alongside (on both sides), although may be none available these days (Eastleigh used to have a breakdown train with crane)

pompeyfan · 29 Jan 2020

Official customer advice now states disruption until end of service 30/01.

Brush 4 · 29 Jan 2020

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-51282927
The 1st 3rd and 4th photos in the link, show that the Up slow is unaffected and, once the wagons have been removed, the loop around the down platform is also undamaged. During track repairs, can't up and down trains use these lines? Better than buses.

Dunfanaghy Rd · 29 Jan 2020

swt_passenger said:
It’s difficult to work out exactly what happened from RTT, but the sudden appearance of times after St Denys means westbound moves must have gone via Fareham. The unit for the 0705 off Reading didn’t run, it was provided using the “Q” path from Central Rivers.

Looks like a departure from “Eastleigh TRSMD” isn’t reported on RTT if the south curve gets used?

I thought it odd, given the notice there was, that there were no STP moves shown in RTT, would that not normally be done for ECS moves happening the day after such an incident?

At a guess, departures from EH via South Junction are probably manually reported to TOPS. Who is responsible for picking up the phone in that case I don't know, it could be the guy in the Depot Points Box. 'The system' is only as good as the reporting.
Pat

hwl · 29 Jan 2020

Snow1964 said:
I wonder if they will weigh those first few containers before apportioning blame, common sense suggests locos are heavy, and if that got across, how much weight was in those initial containers

What has made me wonder further is it seems to be taking a long time in busy location to re-rail the train, especially in a location where a massive rail crane could be brought alongside (on both sides), although may be none available these days (Eastliegh used to have a breakdown train with crane)

Given the wagon type and positioning (locked in one case), container loads, too heavy for the Kirow on site to lift (presumably partly due to crane having to be on top of S&C to do the lift)
Each half of the wagon pair should be good for 43tonnes (45' max per half) so possible to overload with 2x 20' to max "allowed" for the containers but a good margin for 40' /45' to be overloaded before hitting the max for the wagon (at which point the axle load would be over 6 tonnes lighter than the 70...)

edwin_m · 29 Jan 2020

Snow1964 said:
I wonder if they will weigh those first few containers before apportioning blame, common sense suggests locos are heavy, and if that got across, how much weight was in those initial containers

The weight will be checked, but also the distribution of that weight particularly side to side. The mechanism I referred to above is where there is less weight on one side of the bogie, which can combine with a track twist fault to lift one or more wheels off the track. The same can happen with suspension problems or possibly a twisted bogie frame (although this is more likely for the longer chassis of a 4-wheeler).

furnessvale · 29 Jan 2020

hwl said:
Given the wagon type and positioning (locked in one case), container loads, too heavy for the Kirow on site to lift (presumably partly due to crane having to be on top of S&C to do the lift)
Each half of the wagon pair should be good for 43tonnes (45' max per half) so possible to overload with 2x 20' to max "allowed" for the containers but a good margin for 40' /45' to be overloaded before hitting the max for the wagon (at which point the axle load would be over 6 tonnes lighter than the 70...)

I would have thought modern lifting equipment (at terminals and ports) would be self weighing, or should be.

Anything grossly overloaded should be detected, put back on the ground and not transferred to rail.

Edders23 · 29 Jan 2020

edwin_m said:
Not wanting to speculate on this one, but several recent freight derailments have been caused by combinations of factors. So for example there might be a track defect which doesn't cause a problem unless a train comes along with uneven wheel loadings, which in turn could be due to either a bogie defect or uneven loading of the containers.

Is it possible to evenly load containers bearing in mind how diverse a range of goods and commodities they carry with laden weights and weight distribution varying accordingly?

swt_passenger · 29 Jan 2020

Dunfanaghy Rd said:
At a guess, departures from EH via South Junction are probably manually reported to TOPS. Who is responsible for picking up the phone in that case I don't know, it could be the guy in the Depot Points Box. 'The system' is only as good as the reporting.
Pat

Thanks for the reply, that seems plausible. The ECS TO Guildford (that goes in the Fareham direction normally) only appeared on RTT when it got to Hedge End as well.

Apologies if this considered thread drift, but I think how they re-arrange affected services is an interesting side effect.

Mike99 · 29 Jan 2020

swt_passenger said:
Thanks for the reply, that seems plausible. The ECS TO Guildford (that goes in the Fareham direction normally) only appeared on RTT when it got to Hedge End as well.

Apologies if this considered thread drift, but I think how they re-arrange affected services is an interesting side effect.

Agreed, from purely an enthusiast view, always interesting to see how things are sorted out

GB · 29 Jan 2020

Brush 4 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-51282927
The 1st 3rd and 4th photos in the link, show that the Up slow is unaffected and, once the wagons have been removed, the loop around the down platform is also undamaged. During track repairs, can't up and down trains use these lines? Better than buses.

It will completely depend on access requirements for the staff and equipment and requirements for electrical isolations. However it must be said that the full extent of the damage is still unknown and it will be untill the wagons have been removed.

Monty · 29 Jan 2020

After looking at the latest update from NR on Tyrrell Check, they believe that all four lines through Eastleigh will remain closed until end of service on Friday.

Afterwhich a temporary arrangement will allow the down fast to reopen to traffic. However the down slow and the line to Botley will remain closed until a complete renewal of the signal infrastructure is carried out. No ETA for this was given.

Cymroglan · 29 Jan 2020

Far from trying to be clever, I would love to know from someone whether, in layman’s terms, is it reasonable and only to be expected for this derailment to take such a long time to clear? I’m not talking about the infrastructure work that needs to happen, I’m only asking about the removal of the wagons. I really would like to know!

Monty · 29 Jan 2020

Cymroglan said:
Far from trying to be clever, I would love to know from someone whether, in layman’s terms, is it reasonable and only to be expected for this derailment to take such a long time to clear? I’m not talking about the infrastructure work that needs to happen, I’m only asking about the removal of the wagons. I really would like to know!

Wagons #1 & #4 (of the four derailed vehicles) have proven to be quite awkward to remove. Wagon #1 has a severely damaged axle and needs a 'wheel skate' to be removed safely. The nearest one they can source is coming from Leeds, #4 has an eight ton load within it's container and that is the one they expect the most trouble from. It's doesn't help that the track is severely damaged, so all in all it's a tricky operation.

camerar1 · 29 Jan 2020

Monty said:
Afterwhich a temporary arrangement will allow the up fast to reopen to traffic.

Down fast ?

Cymroglan · 29 Jan 2020

Monty said:
Wagons #1 & #4 (of the four derailed vehicles) have proven to be quite awkward to remove. Wagon #1 has a severely damage axle and needs a 'wheel skate' to be removed safely. The nearest one they can source is coming from Leeds, #4 has an eight ton load within it's container and that is the one they expect the most trouble from. It's doesn't help that the track is severely damaged, so all in all it's a tricky operation.

Many thanks for this explanation! It sounds like a very complicated operation.

alastair · 29 Jan 2020

All lines through Eastleigh closed till Monday according to BBC local TV news just a second ago. Surely that can't be correct?

Wychwood93 · 29 Jan 2020

BBC South Today, just now (Paul Clifton) has said that Eastleigh closed until Monday. Not only trackwork and points but also signalling cables - once assorted stuff has been removed they (NR) will be able to look at cable issues. Eastleigh Panel will know what does and does not work, but there will be, obviously, a need to look on the ground.

MotorcycleAlan · 29 Jan 2020

alastair said:
All lines through Eastleigh closed till Monday according to BBC local TV news just a second ago. Surely that can't be correct?

Why not? If the BBC got the story from the highly trained hard working experts working all hours day and night then it could be correct. If however, they consulted the experts on railforums UK, who seem to think the reopening is already overdue, then it could be fake news. How about letting the experts just do their best in very difficult circumstances.

Dunfanaghy Rd · 29 Jan 2020

MotorcycleAlan said:
Why not? If the BBC got the story from the highly trained hard working experts working all hours day and night then it could be correct. If however, they consulted the experts on railforums UK, who seem to think the reopening is already overdue, then it could be fake news. How about letting the experts just do their best in very difficult circumstances.

Nail.
Head.
Hit.

Pat

Monty · 29 Jan 2020

camerar1 said:
Down fast ?

Yes sorry I did mean the down fast, got confuddled! :oops:

ChiefPlanner · 29 Jan 2020

Dunfanaghy Rd said:
Nail.
Head.
Hit.

Pat

Spot on .....

4O05, 07:15 Birch Coppice Freightliner to Southampton M.C.T derailed at Eastleigh (28/01)

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