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4O05, 07:15 Birch Coppice Freightliner to Southampton M.C.T derailed at Eastleigh (28/01)

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Matt Taylor

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Yes sorry I did mean the down fast, got confuddled! :oops:


The down fast may reopen first but it currently looks like it'll be plain lined, in other words it'll be standard track with no pointwork, the down slow is more problematic and access to Hedge End looks like it might be a problem. There are conflicting reports at the moment but I think it's safe to say that Monday is the earliest we can expect a service through station.
 

Monty

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The down fast may reopen first but it currently looks like it'll be plain lined, in other words it'll be standard track with no pointwork, the down slow is more problematic and access to Hedge End looks like it might be a problem. There are conflicting reports at the moment but I think it's safe to say that Monday is the earliest we can expect a service through station.

Indeed, that's what Tyrell Check seemed to imply, temporarily replacing the point work with plain track to allow the down fast to reopen. Feel sorry for the passengers on the Botley line, they've had their fair share of problems these last few years.
 

swt_passenger

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Indeed, that's what Tyrell Check seemed to imply, temporarily replacing the point work with plain track to allow the down fast to reopen. Feel sorry for the passengers on the Botley line, they've had their fair share of problems these last few years.
Have they released your marooned 450 yet?
 

Taunton

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Wagons #1 & #4 (of the four derailed vehicles) have proven to be quite awkward to remove. Wagon #1 has a severely damaged axle and needs a 'wheel skate' to be removed safely. The nearest one they can source is coming from Leeds, #4 has an eight ton load within it's container and that is the one they expect the most trouble from. It's doesn't help that the track is severely damaged, so all in all it's a tricky operation.
I do have to wonder if anyone does any training or has the kit (nearer than Leeds) for this sort of thing any more. The issues here do not sound or look that bad. In the big smash at Bridgwater near Taunton in 1974 it was 17 wagons off the road, some smashed, some upside-down, goods strewn across the roadbed, loco demolished both ends, and a fatality. 36 hours to resume running all lines.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Bridgwater1974.pdf
 
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aleggatta

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I do have to wonder if anyone does any training or has the kit (nearer than Leeds) for this sort of thing any more. The issues here do not sound or look that bad. In the big smash at Bridgwater near Taunton in 1974 it was 17 wagons off the road, some smashed, some upside-down, goods strewn across the roadbed, and a fatality. 36 hours to resume running all lines.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Bridgwater1974.pdf
it's not necessarily that people don't have the kit, it's just that the NR contractor carrying out the operation might only have a set in Leeds. Sort of reminds me of the time a 377 derailed outside Brighton causing delays for 2+ days, with the NR contractors reportedly doing a lot of faffing and waiting a lot of the time for resources to come to site, when the Southern kit was 200 yards away but for whatever reason someone(not southern) was saying no to its use!
 

Nicholas Lewis

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it's not necessarily that people don't have the kit, it's just that the NR contractor carrying out the operation might only have a set in Leeds. Sort of reminds me of the time a 377 derailed outside Brighton causing delays for 2+ days, with the NR contractors reportedly doing a lot of faffing and waiting a lot of the time for resources to come to site, when the Southern kit was 200 yards away but for whatever reason someone(not southern) was saying no to its use!
There needs to be reassessment of location of manpower and plant to deal with derailments so much time is lost in todays railway because nothing is on hand anymore. Before anyone says its waste of money i dont buy that - this is costing the industry money (i dont care which part) but more importantly reputationally we don't look good.

I see RAIB on there twitter account saying theyve deployed a team so hopefully in the fullness of time we will get a report into this which wont happen if its internally investigated.
 

Fiyero

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I saw a battery red light (like I see on the last coach of freight trains) had been put on. I wondered why it was still there! Seeing a train at a platform raised my hope this morning
 

pompeyfan

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Yes, the batteries were well and truly flat when we were relieved yesterday afternoon.

was it not cut out in the end? That’ll be fun to reboot when the juice does finally come back on.

I saw a battery red light (like I see on the last coach of freight trains) had been put on. I wondered why it was still there! Seeing a train at a platform raised my hope this morning

do you mean it’s got a red tail lamp? Where’s the lamp? London end or country end?
 

Amlag

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I do have to wonder if anyone does any training or has the kit (nearer than Leeds) for this sort of thing any more. The issues here do not sound or look that bad. In the big smash at Bridgwater near Taunton in 1974 it was 17 wagons off the road, some smashed, some upside-down, goods strewn across the roadbed, loco demolished both ends, and a fatality. 36 hours to resume running all lines.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Bridgwater1974.pdf

There is no doubt that the organisation, resources and necessary experiences to deal with clearing up after a derailment such as this one and return of a normal service, are these days spread very thinly throughout the National railway system. Recovery of derailed and damaged rolling stock and subsequent track and other infrastructure repairs will, besides NR,ROSCOS and TOCS, involve a multitude of Contractors and sub Contractors in the current 'unjoined up' Railway.
Hence why the Bridgewater incident (which I remember) was so efficiently and quickly cleared up to enable the line to reopen so speedily.
However there are of course,fortunately, fewer derailments these days.
Arguably Heritage railways per mile are far better equipped with most possessing rail cranes and a variety of useful open, flat and low floored wagons.
 

daveshah

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Does anyone know if the engineering works necessitating a SWML diversion via Barnes will go ahead on Sunday, or if the resources will all be focused on Eastleigh? In the former case it could add up to some pretty long doubly diverted journeys...
 

Romsey

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Does anyone know if the engineering works necessitating a SWML diversion via Barnes will go ahead on Sunday, or if the resources will all be focused on Eastleigh? In the former case it could add up to some pretty long doubly diverted journeys...


I would expect the Barnes diversions would take place. Double diversions don't seem to be frowned upon too much these days, the real stopping point for TOC's is double bussing on the core part of a route. ( On BML Buses Woking - Basingstoke and Bournemouth - Wareham would be a straight "NO".)
Whatever the work is on the main line all the contractors and equipment have been arranged and contracts signed. For example, what use would plain line renewals contractors be for relaying pointwork?
Timings, stock diagrams and Train Crew Diagrams issued and Rail Replacement Road services arranged. For many SWR passengers it wouldn't matter if Eastleigh was blocked or not.
SWR/Wessex joint control just don't have the staff to completely undo and rewrite a weekend timetable. Nor do SWR Train Planning..... VSTP Alterations to the advised STP plan is the course of least resistance and least confusion.
 
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Unfortunately the weekend closure of the M27 around Southampton is predicted to cause traffic chaos, so any rail replacement buses might find themselves impacted by this as well.
 

Romsey

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Do we run a sweepstake on then the media notice the M27 and railway are closed at the same time?
My bid is the South Today evening news, about 1845 on Friday.
Will it be off the power?

Yes, it's stuck in a possession with all sorts of kit all over the track and 3rd rails.
 

Helvellyn

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Unfortunately the weekend closure of the M27 around Southampton is predicted to cause traffic chaos, so any rail replacement buses might find themselves impacted by this as well.
Good luck anyone flying out of Southampton. I half expect some media site to have a sob story about someone missing a flight and blaming Network Rail and Highways Hgland for rail and motorway closures.
 

Oxfordblues

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This incident raises the question of why Freightliner still stops their down intermodals at Eastleigh for traincrew relief, tying-up the layout for 5 minutes at a time. Have they considered setting-up a traincrew depot at Maritime? By the time trains finally depart Eastleigh after waiting for a new driver they could almost have reached Maritime anyway. It would cost little more than a free taxi ride from Maritime back to Eastleigh for any drivers living there. Could it be that the drivers are already at the very limit of their permitted hours by the time they reach Eastleigh? I wonder if any readers could enlighten us as to why these historic arrangements have been perpetuated for so long.
 

TrafficEng

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I would have thought modern lifting equipment (at terminals and ports) would be self weighing, or should be.

Anything grossly overloaded should be detected, put back on the ground and not transferred to rail.

I know the ship to shore cranes at one of our larger ports have load sensors with logging of every container lifted. There's also a threshold above which the lift is stopped and the container set back down with the crane taken out of service until the data has been checked to see if a physical inspection is required.

I can't see why the situation would be different at any other UK port.

And given the potential costs involved with a ship to shore crane going out of service I'd be very surprised if there weren't checks at other stages to try to limit the risk of the big stuff being damaged.

The port is obviously only one end of the journey though.
 

Chris M

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Is it possible to evenly load containers bearing in mind how diverse a range of goods and commodities they carry with laden weights and weight distribution varying accordingly?
Each individual container should be loaded such that the weight is distributed as evenly as possible, particularly laterally. If uniform distribution is not possible, then the second preference is having the heaviest weight arranged along the longitudinal centre line. This is the responsibility of the person/organisation putting the goods in the container. IIRC the freight operator has little to no control over this, beyond the contractual right to reject carriage of containers that are inappropriately packed.
The gross (and probably net) weight of each individual container is known to the freight operator, who is responsible for arranging the containers on the train in the optimum configuration without overloading any vehicle or axle. I don't know what is optimum, but my recollection of various RAIB reports is that there are several factors to consider, including the relative position of loaded and empty wagons in a consist as this can make a significant difference to wind loadings.
 

pompeyfan

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Signalling problem at Woking this morning meaning both the down fast and up fast currently blocked on top of the Eastleigh issues. My heart genuinely goes out the the punters.

On a side note, Richard Clinnick done some sort of comparative investigation with Northern last night, and in nearly every category SWR ranked worse. Obviously both these issues seem to lay at NRs door, but the fact they’re struggling to organise crew to run shuttle services is having a really biting effect.
 

DarloRich

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I do have to wonder if anyone does any training or has the kit (nearer than Leeds) for this sort of thing any more. The issues here do not sound or look that bad. In the big smash at Bridgwater near Taunton in 1974 it was 17 wagons off the road, some smashed, some upside-down, goods strewn across the roadbed, loco demolished both ends, and a fatality. 36 hours to resume running all lines.

There is no doubt that the organisation, resources and necessary experiences to deal with clearing up after a derailment such as this one and return of a normal service, are these days spread very thinly throughout the National railway system. Recovery of derailed and damaged rolling stock and subsequent track and other infrastructure repairs will, besides NR,ROSCOS and TOCS, involve a multitude of Contractors and sub Contractors in the current 'unjoined up' Railway.
Hence why the Bridgewater incident (which I remember) was so efficiently and quickly cleared up to enable the line to reopen so speedily.
However there are of course,fortunately, fewer derailments these days.
Arguably Heritage railways per mile are far better equipped with most possessing rail cranes and a variety of useful open, flat and low floored wagons.

But it isnt just the unjoined up nature of the 21st century railway.

We live in a very different legislation & HSEA environment than we did in 197X. Things that were allowed in the halcyon past are illegal now. Weights ( safe working loads) lifted by cranes are much more tightly controlled than before, lifting activities are much more highly controlled and planned than in the past, competent people have to lead, plan and deliver the lifting works, equipment has to be regularly certified . Perhaps have a read of Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulations 1998 (LOLER). I know you wont see this as an issue ('elf and safety gone mad) but that is the reality of life. It isnt a cas eof just rocking up with your rail crane and bashing on.

There needs to be reassessment of location of manpower and plant to deal with derailments so much time is lost in todays railway because nothing is on hand anymore. Before anyone says its waste of money i dont buy that - this is costing the industry money (i dont care which part) but more importantly reputationally we don't look good.

You are free "not to buy it" but you are wrong. How much do you think having a vast number of geographically based teams on call is going to coast? it isnt one team of 5 men on call per location sat about. It is 2 or 3 teams per location (to offer 24X7 coverage) plus spares and all of their personal and team equipment, plus a base, plus vehicles, plus training, plus pension, plus NI, plus etc etc etc.

it is going to be a massive figure! Also how long until the Daily Mail complain about 90k per year union scum sat about doing nowt? They complain about fireman sleeping at the fire station for goodness sake!
 

EvoIV

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This incident raises the question of why Freightliner still stops their down intermodals at Eastleigh for traincrew relief, tying-up the layout for 5 minutes at a time. Have they considered setting-up a traincrew depot at Maritime? By the time trains finally depart Eastleigh after waiting for a new driver they could almost have reached Maritime anyway. It would cost little more than a free taxi ride from Maritime back to Eastleigh for any drivers living there. Could it be that the drivers are already at the very limit of their permitted hours by the time they reach Eastleigh? I wonder if any readers could enlighten us as to why these historic arrangements have been perpetuated for so long.

Don't even know where to begin with this. I'll just say that virtually every assertion you've made is factually incorrect.
 

Snow1964

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Although we have new legislation, comparing to 50 years ago is partly reasonable, but is not whole excuse.

People can be trained as crane drivers and lifting riggers, lifting does not need to be pre-planned. There is nothing to stop a crane being sent to assist. What you cannot do anymore is have an untrained person choosing which chain to attach and where, a trained person can be on site and appraise as required before each lift. The notion the paperwork has to be signed off in an office before they go out is false.

Yes it would cost money having people trained for roles they may rarely perform, but how many millions are being wasted every hour the line is blocked.
There is a sensible balance, and it appears there is insufficient trained staff for reasonable recovery speed.

Its not even a contractual or accounting thing. The Railways already have hundreds of forms/dockets available, any in theory in an emergency one can be marked and costs charged to contingency fund. Its not like the restoration wont ever be sanctioned on a busy main line. Nothing to stop this contingency subsequently being recharged/reapportioned in slow time later. I'm not aware of anything that says deliberately incur more costs and create further delays whilst waiting for paperwork to be signed off in case someone charges a bit of overtime in an emergency situation. If I have got this wrong, happy to be corrected.
 

Monty

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This incident raises the question of why Freightliner still stops their down intermodals at Eastleigh for traincrew relief, tying-up the layout for 5 minutes at a time. Have they considered setting-up a traincrew depot at Maritime? By the time trains finally depart Eastleigh after waiting for a new driver they could almost have reached Maritime anyway. It would cost little more than a free taxi ride from Maritime back to Eastleigh for any drivers living there. Could it be that the drivers are already at the very limit of their permitted hours by the time they reach Eastleigh? I wonder if any readers could enlighten us as to why these historic arrangements have been perpetuated for so long.

Freightliner stopping at Eastleigh for crew changes is a bit of a non issue as DB and GBRf regularly do it with no incident, also if my train that I was working on that day was running on time (we were 6-7 minutes late prior to the derailment) we could of very well been routed in front of 4O05 and into Platform 2. So instead of a freight train derailing we could of had a passenger train instead...
 

Romsey

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This incident raises the question of why Freightliner still stops their down intermodals at Eastleigh for traincrew relief, tying-up the layout for 5 minutes at a time. Have they considered setting-up a traincrew depot at Maritime? By the time trains finally depart Eastleigh after waiting for a new driver they could almost have reached Maritime anyway. It would cost little more than a free taxi ride from Maritime back to Eastleigh for any drivers living there. Could it be that the drivers are already at the very limit of their permitted hours by the time they reach Eastleigh? I wonder if any readers could enlighten us as to why these historic arrangements have been perpetuated for so long.


Freightliner drivers are based at Eastleigh. Most of the drivers live around Eastleigh and for those who don't Eastleigh has a good train service and easy staff car parking, whereas Redbridge only has the Romsey shuttle and a miles walk up the sidings.
For many years shuttle drivers have been used between MCT and Eastleigh which meant the drivers working north from Eastleigh could get to Saltley or Crewe in a single shift, with spare time in the duty. The shunt drivers also did the shunting around MCT. With 25 to 30 wagon trains every train needs at least one shunt when being unloaded and reloaded in a 20 wagon crane area.

With the normal level of road congestion around Southampton, Eastleigh to Southampton MCT would take about 30 to 40 minutes by road between 0700 and about 2000. About 5 to 10 minutes less overnight. ( Train running time is about 20 minutes Eastleigh to Maritime CT protecting signal.)
How can I be certain? My wife commutes by car between home north of Eastleigh and her office near Redbridge. About 30 minutes is normal, but last week it took 1 hour 15 minutes due to one brake down on the M271 and problems at Dock gate 20 causing traffic to block back onto the A35 and M271.
 
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