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City Widened Lines

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R848

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Apologies if the following query has been asked previously, though interested to know what historical proposals there were for the City Widened Lines as far as eastward extensions beyond Moorgate were concerned?

While it is probably the case of Moorgate being close enough to reach the City of London in terms of main objective when it was initially conceived, with the cost of extending a sub-surface route like the City Widened Lines eastwards (plus land values) being greater compared to a bored tunnel (as mentioned in a past loosely-related thread). At what point eastwards was it theoretically possible for the City Widened Lines to go beneath the Metropolitan/Circle/H&C past Moorgate as was the case with the route between King’s Cross and Farringdon?

How feasible would it have been for example for City Widened Lines past Liverpool Street from Moorgate (yet before Aldgate Junction akin to the upcoming Crossrail 1) to connect onto the GEML (possibly via Bishopsgate / Old Spitalfields if not at Bethnal Green Overground, etc) in a roughly similar manner to the nearby historical 1913 proposal to link the GN&CR at Old Street to the MR at Liverpool Street via Finsbury Circus?
 
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mr_jrt

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I think reaching Liverpool Street itself would have been rather easy - just Finsbury Circus to run under, but beyond things get more tricky. I don't know if the old SSL link to the mainline platforms was single or double track, but if it were double the natural thing to do would be to have the northern pair from Moorgate run into those, and the new southern pair running into the existing SSL platforms.
 

Bald Rick

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Reasonably sure there were never any proposals to extend beyond Moorgate, although happy to be proven wrong. And I’m not sure about a link between the NCL and Met at Liv St either; the books I have read suggest it was heading to Cannon St; indeed Parliamentary Consent was granted for the first section before the original line opened, and one tunnel was bored as far as Lothbury before the money ran out.

There was a link from the Met to the GE at Liv St, indeed you can still make out the trace (just), a little west of the ‘outer rail’ platform.
 

PeterC

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Reasonably sure there were never any proposals to extend beyond Moorgate, although happy to be proven wrong. And I’m not sure about a link between the NCL and Met at Liv St either; the books I have read suggest it was heading to Cannon St; indeed Parliamentary Consent was granted for the first section before the original line opened, and one tunnel was bored as far as Lothbury before the money ran out.

There was a link from the Met to the GE at Liv St, indeed you can still make out the trace (just), a little west of the ‘outer rail’ platform.
Why go further east when you had trains to Broad Street as well? It is only in the last few decades that points east Hounsditch have become comuter destinations of any importance.

Before Liverpool Street was rebuilt platforms 1 and 2 were longer than the other suburban platforms because of the former link.
 

mr_jrt

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Ah, so it was both. Thanks. You can see the old link quite clearly on one of the early Crossrail renders:
liverpoolstreetschematic.jpg


...it unfortunately gets severed by part of the ticket hall.

The link from the GN&CR was a proposal from the Met after they bought it. Was to be a rather tight curve branching off before Moorgate. Detailed in "London's Lost Tube Schemes". The extension south to Lothbury was the GN&CR's own original extension, IIRC. I think the Met. Railway proposed linking it to the W&C as well, before settling for a chord to their own SSL line. Ultimately, the Met. was forceably pulled in by the LPTB and they decided to use it for the Northern Heights instead.
 

R848

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The link from the GN&CR was a proposal from the Met after they bought it. Was to be a rather tight curve branching off before Moorgate. Detailed in "London's Lost Tube Schemes". The extension south to Lothbury was the GN&CR's own original extension, IIRC. I think the Met. Railway proposed linking it to the W&C as well, before settling for a chord to their own SSL line.

Was not thinking of the City Widened Lines making use of the former Met/etc route to Liverpool Street mainline platforms 1/2 from Moorgate, rather was envisioning a GN&CR to MR type curve after Liverpool Street running northward roughly parallel the A10 Bishopsgate onto the GEML or a less tight alternative curve onto the GEML a bit further eastwards via Spitalfields depending on which of the two is most feasible.

FWIW "London's Lost Tube Schemes" on p278 mentions a later 1914 version of the proposed GN&CR to MR curve from Old Street to just before Aldgate Junction (towards either Aldgate or a route onto the ELL) that while appearing to omit Liverpool Street (due to the route going north of the station), does not seem to completely rule out a potential stop at Broad Street had it been approved (that could have created the groundwork for it to be integrated into Liverpool Street). Also seems they missed a trick in not establishing a link between east of Aldgate Junction and west of Aldgate East Junction for a less busier connection between Old Street and Aldgate East (with its own stop at Broad Street / Liverpool Street) in place of the existing H&C route between Moorgate and Aldgate East.
 

delt1c

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Reasonably sure there were never any proposals to extend beyond Moorgate, although happy to be proven wrong. And I’m not sure about a link between the NCL and Met at Liv St either; the books I have read suggest it was heading to Cannon St; indeed Parliamentary Consent was granted for the first section before the original line opened, and one tunnel was bored as far as Lothbury before the money ran out.

There was a link from the Met to the GE at Liv St, indeed you can still make out the trace (just), a little west of the ‘outer rail’ platform.
The Former Link later became the LT canteen . On your break you constantly heard the passing circle and Met trains as the windows were always open
 

delt1c

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Ah, so it was both. Thanks. You can see the old link quite clearly on one of the early Crossrail renders:
liverpoolstreetschematic.jpg


...it unfortunately gets severed by part of the ticket hall.

The link from the GN&CR was a proposal from the Met after they bought it. Was to be a rather tight curve branching off before Moorgate. Detailed in "London's Lost Tube Schemes". The extension south to Lothbury was the GN&CR's own original extension, IIRC. I think the Met. Railway proposed linking it to the W&C as well, before settling for a chord to their own SSL line. Ultimately, the Met. was forceably pulled in by the LPTB and they decided to use it for the Northern Heights instead.
Concidering the short distance between Moorgate and Liverpool St could 1 station not have been constructed below Finsbury Circus linkin both Moorgate and Liverpool St
 

Bald Rick

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Concidering the short distance between Moorgate and Liverpool St could 1 station not have been constructed below Finsbury Circus linkin both Moorgate and Liverpool St

There is! It’s just not open yet.
 

Taunton

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It was not really practical to extend the Widened Lines beyond Moorgate. Through from Kings Cross the lines had broken through old, dilapidated building areas, but beyond Moorgate was Finsbury Circus, an early Victorian grand development. The Met managed to fit a 2-track tunnel under the east-west road and central gardens without disturbing any structures, but more than that would have involved demolition of the houses. Because of the tracks already being almost surface level at Moorgate cut-and-cover was the only practical continuation, not deep tunnelling underneath. Incidentally, the current grand buildings around the Circus are not the originals, but 1900-1920 replacements.
 

AM9

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I can remember in the early 60s when the Met/Circle Line between Aldersgate (now Barbican) and Moorgate was all in open air as your linked picture shows.
Yes I also remember that project of building the Barbican complex over the Met/Circle. The route originally had a large curve to the north avoiding the buildings visible in mr_jrt's attached picture above. The current line passes under the raft, built for the Barbican complex in the '60s. I remember the whole project being heavily featured in ther London Transpot Magazine, (how I wish I'd kept those from my childhood).
 
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edwin_m

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A lot of the purpose of the original Met line, and the Widened Lines that followed, was bringing freight in to the various depots and markets that clustered around Farringdon. That sort of use was never going to happen on the more expensive land further east so there was less reason to extend the railway there.
 

R848

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So it would seem that had such a scheme been considered, it would have likely entailed much of Finsbury Circus being sacrificed (in the absence of a more suitable solution) in order for the City Widened Lines to reach Liverpool Street and beyond onto the GEML?

Apparently Finsbury Circus was threatened with demolition in favour of a railway station during 1860-1865 at one point prior to the MR in 1869, though there appears to be nothing on the specifics of the previous scheme.
 

Taunton

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Given what happened to the area from Farringdon to Moorgate it's a miracle they survived:
Actually the lines didn't, as shown - they were rerouted in a straight line, and then the Barbican development built around and over them. A new station at Barbican replaced the previous one nearby which had been known as Aldersgate (probably had a lot of mixups with Aldgate). I think the four tracks were transferred one at a time over an extended period.
 

mr_jrt

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...sorry for any confusion, I was referring to the problematic buildings at Finsbury Circus rather than the rail infrastructure.
 

Taunton

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The 6 O/P stock Underground cars burnt out in the picture above were lost on 29 December 1941, and the photo must have been taken just a day or two later as there are wagons being loaded with debris standing on the Circle Line tracks. I think this was the only complete Underground train to be lost, there were several other individual cars lost as well, and obviously others were damaged and repaired, but the overall losses were amazingly light - notably compared to German systems, a number of which lost the bulk of their rolling stock.
 

rogercov

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Actually the lines didn't, as shown - they were rerouted in a straight line, and then the Barbican development built around and over them. A new station at Barbican replaced the previous one nearby which had been known as Aldersgate (probably had a lot of mixups with Aldgate). I think the four tracks were transferred one at a time over an extended period.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think mr_jrt was referring to the fact that they survived the blitz, which they did (no doubt with some repairs). The rerouting of the lines wasn't until at least 20 years later when the Barbican area was redeveloped. Then all they did was straighten the tracks between Barbican and Moorgate. There was no "new station" at Barbican. It's still the same cutting, platforms and trackbed as it was pre-war. They just renamed the station. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbican_tube_station
 

EbbwJunction1

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Two questions, please:
1. Where did the name "City Widened Lines" come from?
2. What's the cricket ground in the photo from flickr - is it the Honourable Artillery Ground off City Road?
 

randyrippley

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Two questions, please:
1. Where did the name "City Widened Lines" come from?
2. What's the cricket ground in the photo from flickr - is it the Honourable Artillery Ground off City Road?

I've always understood it was because the Met line widened its route to take two extra tracks
 

edwin_m

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I've always understood it was because the Met line widened its route to take two extra tracks
And because the purpose was to serve the City of London, being the area round Moorgate and Liverpool Street. Getting to the City from the three (later four) main line termini further west was the main reason to build the line in the first place. Related, the Hammersmith and City line name goes back many years to the Hammersmith and City Railway, which only had its own track at the Hammersmith end but ran services through to the Met.
 

Bald Rick

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Two questions, please:
1. Where did the name "City Widened Lines" come from?
2. What's the cricket ground in the photo from flickr - is it the Honourable Artillery Ground off City Road?

I haven’t seen the picture, but if it is of the Moorgate / Barbican area, then yes it will be the Honorubale Artillery Company grounds.
 

EbbwJunction1

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Thank you, everyone, that's useful to know.

The HAC Grounds are still there, although most of the rest has probably changed out of all recognition since the photo was taken.
 

Taunton

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The HAC is a general parade ground rather than just a cricket ground. All sorts of events take place on it. They land helicopters in there occasionally.

I wonder when the Widened Lines were actually built. They commonly are stated to have opened with the connection to the GNR, just a few years after the basic Met as far as Farringdon was built. Given that this in itself was a substantial cut/cover (actually not a lot of cover, much of it is in brick-lined cuttings) civil engineering job from Kings Cross to Farringdon, shoehorned between buildings, was one side of it, plus the Ray Street two-level works, etc, all re-excavated just a couple of years after the Met opened, or was it part of the original Met design and land purchase?
 
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EbbwJunction1

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The HAC is a general parade ground rather than just a cricket ground. All sorts of events take place on it. They land helicopters in there occasionally.

Thanks - I used the description as a general thing, not meaning to say that it was only a cricket ground. I'm hoping to get to the Spring Open Evening in May, when they have displays by all parts of the Regiment. The Museum in the main building is excellent as well.
 

Bald Rick

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The HAC is a general parade ground rather than just a cricket ground. All sorts of events take place on it. They land helicopters in there occasionally.

I wonder when the Widened Lines were actually built. They commonly are stated to have opened with the connection to the GNR, just a few years after the basic Met as far as Farringdon was built. Given that this in itself was a substantial cut/cover (actually not a lot of cover, much of it is in brick-lined cuttings) civil engineering job from Kings Cross to Farringdon, shoehorned between buildings, was one side of it, plus the Ray Street two-level works, etc, all re-excavated just a couple of years after the Met opened, or was it part of the original Met design and land purchase?

My London tunnelling book says that the widened lines were very much an ‘afterthought’ to the original Met. But they did get built relatively soon after the Met opened.
 
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