Northern franchise to end 1 March 2020 with Operator of Last Resort to take over

61653 HTAFC · 30 Jan 2020

TUC said:
That is one of the issues which are indicative of the feeling that, whatever the wider infrastructure problems, Northern really didn't have a clue. From a business and image perspective, there would have been clear benefits in being able to publicise that all the services on x line were now being operated by new trains. Instead, it just seemed completely haphazard what was used on any day.

Ever since the start of the franchise there's been signs that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing, particularly in terms of refurbishments and the very idea of "Northern Connect". The 3-car 150 project was pretty much stillborn, not least because the associated platform extensions are behind schedule. Now most of the 150s have their large toilets, so that's a fair bit of wasted space in half the three car units if they still end up being formed.

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Bletchleyite · 30 Jan 2020

61653 HTAFC said:
Ever since the start of the franchise there's been signs that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing, particularly in terms of refurbishments and the very idea of "Northern Connect". The 3-car 150 project was pretty much stillborn, not least because the associated platform extensions are behind schedule. Now most of the 150s have their large toilets, so that's a fair bit of wasted space in half the three car units if they still end up being formed.

It's all very Arriva - they rarely carry any major project through properly. Look at Arriva Sapphire for an example.

Northern Connect should initially just have involved sticking a vinyl saying "Connect" on the 195s and 331s used for the Barrows, Windermeres and Blackpool North expresses (i.e. the former NorthWest Express service group) plus the new Chester-Leeds, plus ATOS Annie adding "Connect" after "Northern" in the announcements. Not hard yet they seem incapable of even that. Growing it could have happened later.

krus_aragon · 30 Jan 2020

61653 HTAFC said:
Much rather The Eagles' song of the same name, but with the definite article.

I can work with that...

He came from Parliament, the one in Westminster
Where the old world shadows hang heavy in the air
He packed his hopes and dreams like a fresh MP
Just as Theresa said "Transport Secretary"

He heard about a place no-one was smilin'
They spoke in a northern way, up in God's own land
And they came from either side of the Great Pennines
Seeking a place to stand on a train to Hyde

Down on the crowded trains they're losing time,
They can't wait to tell you all how it's great "Down South"
And they called it paradise, I don't know why
When Beeching laid the mountains low closing Woodhead's mouth

There'd been a chilly wind of change across the Pennines
From the dockyards of the east to the river Ouse
'Cause the orange people they would bring their power
To light their neon way and give them EMUs

Then that man came and seized the plans, nobody saw them
Delayed a bunch of infrastructure and hoped that we'd forgot 'em
And he called it paradise, the place to be,
They watched delays galore on platform thirteen

You can leave it all behind said Serco and Abellio
Just like the visionaries did so many years ago
They even brought a purple sign 'New Trains are Coming'
Brought the whole timetable down, kept the old-time trains

Who will provide the grand design, what is yours and what is mine?
'Cause there is no more help from 'DfT, we have got to make it here
We'll satisfy our transport needs in spite of all their bloody deeds
In the name of destiny and in the name of God

And you can see them there on Sunday mornings
Stand up and moan about why there aren't no trains
They called it paradise, I don't know why
You want Grayling's paradise, kiss it goodbye

61653 HTAFC · 30 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It's all very Arriva - they rarely carry any major project through properly. Look at Arriva Sapphire for an example.

Northern Connect should initially just have involved sticking a vinyl saying "Connect" on the 195s and 331s used for the Barrows, Windermeres and Blackpool North expresses (i.e. the former NorthWest Express service group) plus the new Chester-Leeds, plus ATOS Annie adding "Connect" after "Northern" in the announcements. Not hard yet they seem incapable of even that. Growing it could have happened later.

Maintaining two separate (albeit linked) brands was always doomed to fail especially with Arriva in charge. Northern (whoever is running it) will always struggle for stock, so having a large chunk of the fleet dedicated to only certain services was bound to be problematic.

61653 HTAFC · 30 Jan 2020

krus_aragon said:
I can work with that...

He came from Parliament, the one in Westminster
Where the old world shadows hang heavy in the air
He packed his hopes and dreams like a fresh MP
Just as Theresa said "Transport Secretary"

He heard about a place no-one was smilin'
They spoke in a northern way, up in God's own land
And they came from either side of the Great Pennines
Seeking a place to stand on a train to Hyde

Down on the crowded trains they're losing time,
They can't wait to tell you all how it's great "Down South"
And they called it paradise, I don't know why
When Beeching laid the mountains low closing Woodhead's mouth

There'd been a chilly wind of change across the Pennines
From the dockyards of the east to the river Ouse
'Cause the orange people they would bring their power
To light their neon way and give them EMUs

Then that man came and seized the plans, nobody saw them
Delayed a bunch of infrastructure and hoped that we'd forgot 'em
And he called it paradise, the place to be,
They watched delays galore on platform thirteen

You can leave it all behind said Serco and Abellio
Just like the visionaries did so many years ago
They even brought a purple sign 'New Trains are Coming'
Brought the whole timetable down, kept the old-time trains

Who will provide the grand design, what is yours and what is mine?
'Cause there is no more help from 'DfT, we have got to make it here
We'll satisfy our transport needs in spite of all their bloody deeds
In the name of destiny and in the name of God

And you can see them there on Sunday mornings
Stand up and moan about why there aren't no trains
They called it paradise, I don't know why
You want Grayling's paradise, kiss it goodbye

A round of applause from me, that was quick work! Well played! :lol:

Edders23 · 30 Jan 2020

jfollows said:
The dreadful Arriva statement including "largely because of external factors" just seems to me to demonstrate their denial of their responsibility.

Times have changed from the days of the "Buck stops here" the modern world is all about blaming the other guy. We have become a society where being economical with the truth is a way of life thats why we all now need CCTV in our cars, trains buses etc. these days you have to prove your telling the truth

krus_aragon · 30 Jan 2020

61653 HTAFC said:
A round of applause from me, that was quick work! Well played!

Thank you!

A lunch-break well spent...

TUC · 30 Jan 2020

61653 HTAFC said:
Ever since the start of the franchise there's been signs that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing, particularly in terms of refurbishments and the very idea of "Northern Connect". The 3-car 150 project was pretty much stillborn, not least because the associated platform extensions are behind schedule. Now most of the 150s have their large toilets, so that's a fair bit of wasted space in half the three car units if they still end up being formed.

Accessible toilets for passengers in wheelchairs is hardly 'wasted space'.

TUC · 30 Jan 2020

There were also simple communication wins that Northern did not even attempt. For example, in the debacle over the ongoing publicity advising that for a certain period not all trains may have wheelchair accessible toilets, it surely should have been possible for Northern to put online a daily list of which services were or were not accessible. They didn't even try.

R G NOW. · 30 Jan 2020

TUC said:
There were also simple communication wins that Northern did not even attempt. For example, in the debacle over the ongoing publicity advising that for a certain period not all trains may have wheelchair accessible toilets, it surely should have been possible for Northern to put online a daily list of which services were or were not accessible. They didn't even try.

I always thought all tocs had to do that.

R G NOW. · 30 Jan 2020

Some trains I have been on, did have wide curved doors where a wheelchair can go in.

Killingworth · 30 Jan 2020

TUC said:
Accessible toilets for passengers in wheelchairs is hardly 'wasted space'.

I have an uneasy feeling that very few wheelchair users ever use trains. Due to overloading even the able bodied find it hard to get aboard many of them. They must be very determined to even try. Most of us would do all we could to avoid any train toilets, even if we could reach them through the crush. Important though it is to have accessible toilets for those with disabilities we need more space in more carriages so toilets are accessible to all of us anywhere down the train at any time.

R G NOW. · 30 Jan 2020

Best to find the ones at the station and use those before boarding trains, this is what I do.

Killingworth · 30 Jan 2020

R G NOW. said:
Best to find the ones at the station and use those before boarding trains, this is what I do.

You're lucky to find any form of toilet at the vast majority of stations, although it's the second most requested facility when passengers are asked - better shelter comes first.

Glenn1969 · 30 Jan 2020

The ORR hauled Network Rail over the coals for its poor performance in the North West. But will they get their act together with the OLR in charge any more than they did for Arriva Northern?

Mogster · 30 Jan 2020

I must admit I did find Granada Reports illustrating their “diabolical Northern” story by showing a reporter riding a brand new 6 car 331 service slightly incongruous...

Dr Hoo · 30 Jan 2020

Glenn1969 said:
The ORR hauled Network Rail over the coals for its poor performance in the North West. But will they get their act together with the OLR in charge any more than they did for Arriva Northern?

There is a distinction between licence monitoring (by ORR, on Network Rail, to make sure that it is delivering what it has been funded to do for Control Period 6) and franchise (or OLR appointment) management by the franchising body, i.e. DfT.

Shaw S Hunter · 30 Jan 2020

Killingworth said:
I have an uneasy feeling that very few wheelchair users ever use trains. Due to overloading even the able bodied find it hard to get aboard many of them. They must be very determined to even try. Most of us would do all we could to avoid any train toilets, even if we could reach them through the crush. Important though it is to have accessible toilets for those with disabilities we need more space in more carriages so toilets are accessible to all of us anywhere down the train at any time.

With all due respect PRM accessibility is not just about wheelchair users. I agree that wheelchair users form an absolutely tiny proportion of total rail passengers but what about people with hearing or sight issues, or those who while still able to walk are generally less agile? Try using the basic toilet in a 185: it's about as awkward as a typical aircraft toilet. Much easier for everyone when using a larger fully accessible one.

Killingworth · 30 Jan 2020

Shaw S Hunter said:
With all due respect PRM accessibility is not just about wheelchair users. I agree that wheelchair users form an absolutely tiny proportion of total rail passengers but what about people with hearing or sight issues, or those who while still able to walk are generally less agile? Try using the basic toilet in a 185: it's about as awkward as a typical aircraft toilet. Much easier for everyone when using a larger fully accessible one.

The point I was making was in answer to one about wheelchairs and toilet accessibility. My concern is for any with reduced mobility having to deal with overcrowded trains and similarly overcrowded station platforms. There are many, particularly of advancing age, who may not appear disabled but may suffer from things as simple as dimmed vision or a weak bladder. There are so many things the majority won't think of until they, or a close friend, has to deal with it.

I particularly recall an old gentleman being helped from a train by the guard at a local station. Blind, with long stick, he was finding the huge gap very difficult. He was so appreciative and started to share his memories of what the station had been like decades ago. The already late train got later. Others waiting for the platform to clear to allow the next train to arrive were getting impatient. I helped the old chap away from the train. He'd been blind all his life. He'd never seen the station. I hadn't the heart to tell him it had never had 6 platforms.

61653 HTAFC · 30 Jan 2020

TUC said:
Accessible toilets for passengers in wheelchairs is hardly 'wasted space'.

More than one on a 60m 3-car unit is though.

(Then again, so is an unused cab)

PG · 30 Jan 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I hope Alex Hynes stays as far away as possible - we need solid management and concrete improvements, not bluster.

Drat... I was hoping we could get rid of him back down south - all he does is keep telling us we've got our best ever railway!

thenorthern said:
In the same way East Coast ran services well but it didn't really do anything special other than operate trains as normal.

I must have imagined the Eureka timetable overhaul on the ECML, done when the route was being operated by, err East Coast :oops:

johntea · 30 Jan 2020

Mogster said:
I must admit I did find Granada Reports illustrating their “diabolical Northern” story by showing a reporter riding a brand new 6 car 331 service slightly incongruous...

BBC Look North were similar, 'oh the first train I've caught is on time, a 170 and I can charge my phone on it!'

Meanwhile the first topic on Brexit...err Question Time tonight is surprisingly not Brexit but Northern Rail, which is a bee in the bonnet for many audience members considering the show has pitched up in Buxton, not quite sure what the woman in the audience moaning about how her son paid £160 for a ticket to St Pancras and didn't even get a seat added to the debate though!

Now time to go round in circles regarding HS2!

transmanche · 30 Jan 2020

thenorthern said:
In the same way East Coast ran services well but it didn't really do anything special other than operate trains as normal.

PG said:
I must have imagined the Eureka timetable overhaul on the ECML, done when the route was being operated by, err East Coast

They also launched East Coast Rewards, probably the best railway loyalty scheme ever. I managed to get quite a few free tickets under that scheme. And they launched the complimentary meals iand n first class offer too.

Well, apart from the transformational Eureka timetable, the generous rewards scheme, scrapping the £2.50 seat reservation charge brought in by NXEC, complimentary meals and drinks in first class, and making over £1bn for the Treasury... what did East Coast ever do for us?

Glenn1969 · 30 Jan 2020

And work is currently underway to prepare for another recast timetable. Albeit delayed work making the recast 2 years late

Killingworth · 30 Jan 2020

Glenn1969 said:
And work is currently underway to prepare for another recast timetable. Albeit delayed work making the recast 2 years late

Well all seems to remain virtually the same on the Hope Valley line from May with a few tweeks of a minute or two that may help punctuality. Roll on December. And 2023.

thenorthern · 30 Jan 2020

transmanche said:
They also launched East Coast Rewards, probably the best railway loyalty scheme ever. I managed to get quite a few free tickets under that scheme. And they launched the complimentary meals iand n first class offer too.

Well, apart from the transformational Eureka timetable, the generous rewards scheme, scrapping the £2.50 seat reservation charge brought in by NXEC, complimentary meals and drinks in first class, and making over £1bn for the Treasury... what did East Coast ever do for us?

The rolling stock stayed largely the same, the stations served again stayed largely the same, service extensions stayed largely the same.

PG · 31 Jan 2020

transmanche said:
Well, apart from the transformational Eureka timetable, [snip] , and making over £1bn for the Treasury... what did East Coast ever do for us?

My bolding - she made a good job running East Coast, I wonder if Karen Boswell would be tempted to have another spin as MD of an OLR?

transmanche · 31 Jan 2020

transmanche said:
Well, apart from the transformational Eureka timetable, the generous rewards scheme, scrapping the £2.50 seat reservation charge brought in by NXEC, complimentary meals and drinks in first class, and making over £1bn for the Treasury... what did East Coast ever do for us?

thenorthern said:
The rolling stock stayed largely the same, the stations served again stayed largely the same, service extensions stayed largely the same.

Not familiar with the work of Monty Python?

WesternLancer · 31 Jan 2020

transmanche said:
Not familiar with the work of Monty Python?

But did Monty Python ever need a direct train from Lincoln to Kings Cross? :lol:

TheSel · 31 Jan 2020

WesternLancer said:
But did Monty Python ever need a direct train from Lincoln to Kings Cross?

in 'Clockwise' (1986), John Cleese needed (but missed) a train from Hull to Norwich. Is that close enough for you?

Northern franchise to end 1 March 2020 with Operator of Last Resort to take over

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