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I'm planning a return trip from Nuneaton to Benfleet, splitting my ticket at Upminster with this ticket. As I don't often change trains across London I have a few newbie queries.
On the way back I don't know which train I'll be getting from Benfleet, as my departure time will depend on matters out of my control, but whichever I get I need to get across London as fast as possible to get the first departure from Euston that I can as I will already be late for my next appointment.
Some journey planners seem to suggest changing at Stratford onto London Overground is a relatively quick route, but rail journey planners indicate this is not a valid route for the ticket which is fair enough. Would I instead be able to alight at Stratford and get the Central line to Bank to change for the Northern? If so would there be any issues with ticket barriers / personnel at Stratford?
Another potential option is alighting at Limehouse to change onto the DLR to Bank. Same question with regard to barriers / personnel at Limehouse. Also to change from DLR to tube at Bank do I need to leave the barriered area, and would this be seen as a break of journey?
If I head to Liverpool Street, my options seem to include getting the tube to Moorgate for Northern line services, to walk to Moorgate. Could anyone experienced in this location tell me whether walking or tube is generally quicker for this journey?
Fastest route is indeed to change at Limehouse, bank and Euston.
Be at the front of the train (I believe) to have easy interchange at bank. If you get it right it's hardly any distance at all (possibly the easiest interchange at Bank?) and certainly no barriers.
As for Liverpool St to Euston, it's probably quicker to walk at the Moorgate end than the Euston Square end, while interchanging between lines is probably going to be even slower .
What route involving London Overground do you think might not be valid? Whatever it is, it probably will be valid but probably won't be the quickest.
Google maps throws up London Overground from Stratford to Highbury & Islington, then Northern line from there. I've noticed that code 2C has the restriction "Not valid to depart STRATFORD LONDON 1705–1854 on any TOC", which may have an effect as my travel would be within those times. I suspect though that when minimum connection times are taken out of the equation I would get a more consistent and reliable journey time via the underground.
The interchange at Limehouse is awkward. The two stations (C2C & DLR) are both elevated but to get between them it is necessary to go down to ground level and up again.
I have done this route (C2C to Euston) by walking from Fenchurch Street to Bank, it a straight line along Fenchurch Street and Lombard Street and takes about 10 minutes. Maybe that was before DLR reached Bank!
I suppose just from habit, when going from Liverpool Street to Euston, I have always taken the route via Euston Square underground station, which involves a walk, but that shouldn't feature on a trip from Benfleet. But you could change at West Ham onto a Hammersmith & City Line train to Euston Square. It might seem slow, but because it avoids waiting about at Limehouse & Bank, the journey time is about the same.
Why would you go to Liverpool Street at all? The more natural way to make the journey from Benfleet is to leave via the mid-platform exit at Fenchurch Street, walk to Tower Hill, take the underground to Monument, leave from the front of the train and then change for the Northern line from Bank to Euston. Monument District Line to Bank Northern Line is about the same distance as Bank Central Line to Bank Northern Line.
The route suggested by @JonathanH is the one offered by the TfL Journey Planner. But if you're going to walk anywhere from Fenchurch Street, why not just walk straight to Bank?! People tend to forget that the underground map, excellent as it is, does not really represent the local geography!
The route suggested by @JonathanH is the one offered by the TfL Journey Planner. But if you're going to walk anywhere from Fenchurch Street, why not just walk straight to Bank?! People tend to forget that the underground map, excellent as it is, does not really represent the local geography!
Yes, I almost noted that front entrance of Fenchurch Street to Northern Line at Bank on foot is entirely practical and will most likely save time relative to going via Tower Hill if in a rush as there is only one train to wait for.
I suspect that with perfect connections using Tower Hill to Monument is slightly quicker but that isn't guaranteed.
The mid platform (Crosswall / Cutlers Row) exit are Fenchurch Street, followed by a quick and short walk to Aldgate, from where there are circle and metropolitan line trains to Euston, is pretty easy and involves far fewer steps going up and down (though no lifts at Aldgate). I use Aldgate to get to Euston all the time and it’s very easy.
Google maps throws up London Overground from Stratford to Highbury & Islington, then Northern line from there. I've noticed that code 2C has the restriction "Not valid to depart STRATFORD LONDON 1705–1854 on any TOC", which may have an effect as my travel would be within those times.
I'm a little puzzled by the reference to Stratford, as C2C trains only run that way at weekends, and Googlemaps is usually accurate in normal circumstances.
Anyway, I'd take any one of the tube options!
The mid platform (Crosswall / Cutlers Row) exit are Fenchurch Street, followed by a quick and short walk to Aldgate, from where there are circle and metropolitan line trains to Euston, is pretty easy and involves far fewer steps going up and down (though no lifts at Aldgate). I use Aldgate to get to Euston all the time and it’s very easy.
Good shout; I'd do this over Tower Hill for sure. It does involve a walk at Euston Square but then again it avoids escalators. If the weather is decent and I was up for a walk I would do Aldgate / Euston Square.
Another good thing about Aldgate is that there will usually be a Met train in the station, and you can guarantee a decent seat!
As @30907 points out, are you travelling on a normal weekday when (according to the timetable) all C2C trains go to Fenchurch Street, not passing Stratford? Or on a weekend when some trains go to Fenchurch Street and some go to Liverpool Street via Stratford? Your mention of evening restrictions implies the former, while your mention of alighting at Stratford implies the latter. Or is it a special day with engineering works causing diversions?
For normal weekday afternoon peak frequencies, here are my guesstimates of times from West Ham C2C train to Euston NR concourse. (No guarantees of correctness, and no consideration of ticket validity.) For the interchanges I'm guessing based on the station maps listed below and also using Google Maps's walking times between station entrances, both of which are likely to be a bit on the slow side.
I've ignored issues of the Northern line being so full that you can't get on the first train - can anyone share their experience of going northbound from Bank/Moorgate in the evening peak? But even if you have to let a train go @yorkie's route via Limehouse and Bank is still the fastest.
A few things to note:
If you're on a Westbound H&C/Met/Circle at Moorgate then getting off and changing to Northern saves only 0-3 minutes compared with staying on and Walking to Euston Square.
Walking between Liverpool Street and Moorgate never saves time compared with taking a Westbound H&C/Met/Circle (and isn't a valid out-of-station interchange for PAYG).
From Stratford to Liverpool Street, Central and NR take the same time but Central wins on frequency so I've not included NR.
West Ham to Mile End (where there is cross-platform interchange) is always faster and more convenient direct on H&C/District than via Stratford on Jubilee+Central, so I've not included the latter.
Here are 5 main routes with variations: Via Bank to Euston on Northern:
West Ham - Limehouse - Bank - Euston
C2C West Ham - Limehouse: 5min
Walk Limehouse C2C - DLR: 3min
DLR Limehouse - Bank: 5min, every 3-4min
Walk Bank DLR - Northern: 2min
Northern Bank - Euston: 10min, every 3min
Walk Euston Northern - NR: 3min
Alternative: Via Fenchurch Street and Tower Hill
C2C West Ham - Fenchurch Street: 12min
Walk Fenchurch Street C2C - Tower Hill District/Circle: 5min
District/Circle Tower Hill - Monument: 1min, every 2min
Walk Monument District/Circle - Bank Northern: 2min
Northern Bank - Euston: 10min, every 3min
Walk Euston Northern - NR: 3min
Alternative: Via Fenchurch Street and walk to Bank
C2C West Ham - Fenchurch Street: 12min
Walk Fenchurch Street C2C - Bank Northern: 16min?
Northern Bank - Euston: 10min, every 3min
Walk Euston Northern - NR: 3min
Alternative: Via Mile End for Central to Bank
Walk West Ham C&C - H&C/District: 2min
H&C/District West Ham - Mile End: 6min, every 3-4min
Cross-platform Mile End H&C/District - Central: 0min
Central Mile End - Bank: 8min, every 2min
Walk Bank Central - Northern: 3min
Northern Bank - Euston: 10min, every 3min
Walk Euston Northern - NR: 3min
To Euston Square on H&C/Met/Circle:
West Ham - Euston Square direct
Walk West Ham C2C - H&C/District: 2min
H&C West Ham - Euston Square: 28min, every 10min
Walk Euston Square H&C/Met/Circle - Euston NR: 9min
Alternative: Cut across Mile End - Liverpool Street on Central Line (saves having to wait up to 10min for H&C - choose between the two based on how long the wait is for the next H&C)
Walk West Ham C2C - H&C/District: 2min
H&C/District West Ham - Mile End: 6min, every 3-4min
Cross-platform Mile End H&C/District - Central: 0min
Central Mile End - Liverpool Street: 6min, every 2min
Walk Liverpool Street Central - H&C/Met/Circle: 3min
H&C/Met/Circle Liverpool Street - Euston Square: 11min, every 2-3min
Walk Euston Square H&C/Met/Circle - Euston NR: 9min
Alternative: Via Fenchurch Street and Aldgate
C2C West Ham - Fenchurch Street: 12min
Walk Fenchurch Street C2C - Aldgate Met/Circle: 7min
Met/Circle Aldgate - Euston Square: 12min, every 2-4min
Walk Euston Square H&C/Met/Circle - Euston NR: 9min
Alternative: Change from H&C/District at Moorgate to Northern
From Moorgate H&C/Met/Circle (9min travel and 9min walk before Euston NR)
Walk Moorgate H&C/Met/Circle - Northern: 4min
Northern Moorgate - Euston: 8min, every 3min
Walk Euston Northern - NR: 3min
Alternative: Change from Central at Liverpool Street to walk to Moorgate for Northern (not a valid out-of-station interchange!)
From Liverpool Street Central (11min travel, 12min walk and 0-3min wait before Euston NR)
Walk Liverpool Street Central - Moorgate Northern: 13min
Northern Moorgate - Euston: 8min, every 3min
Walk Euston Northern - NR: 3min
Via Highbury & Islington:
West Ham - Stratford - Highbury & Islington - Euston
Walk West Ham C2C - Jubilee: 5min
Jubilee West Ham - Stratford: 3min, every 2-3min
Walk Stratford Jubilee - Overground: 3min
Overground Stratford - Highbury & Islington: 15min, every 5-8min
Walk Highbury & Islington Overground - Victoria: 3min
Victoria Highbury & Islington - Euston: 4min, every 2min
Walk Euston Victoria - NR: 3min
Via Oxford Circus:
West Ham - Mile End - Oxford Circus - Euston
Walk West Ham C2C - H&C/District: 2min
H&C/District West Ham - Mile End: 6min, every 3-4min
Cross-platform Mile End H&C/District - Central: 0min
Central Mile End - Oxford Circus: 16min, every 2min
Oxford Circus Central - Victoria: 2min
Victoria Oxford Circus - Euston: 3min, every 2min
Walk Euston Victoria - NR: 3min
Via Green Park:
Walk West Ham C2C - Jubilee: 5min
Jubilee West Ham - Green Park: 20min, every 2-3min
Walk Green Park Jubilee - Victoria: 2min
Victoria Green Park - Euston: 5min, every 2min
Walk Euston Victoria - NR: 3min
Near front of train?, stairs down, then:
H&C/District: Turn right, go up stairs?. Total: 2min?
Jubilee: Turn left, go up escalators, along long walkway, down escalators?. Total: 5min?
Near middle/front of train, up escalators, then
H&C/Circle/Met: Turn right, cross above tracks using stairs. Total: 3min?
Walk to Moorgate northbound Northern: Turn left, exit barriers, stairs up to station concourse, turn left, up escalator to street level (4min), walk to Moorgate (6min), down stairs, enter barriers, down escalator, turn right, down stairs (3min). Total: 13min?
Very front of train, then:
Overground to H&I: Straight forward down stairs into subway, then up stairs for platform 1/2. Total: 3min?
Westbound Central: Up stairs to the right, then right + left for platform 3a. Total: 2min?
As @30907 points out, are you travelling on a normal weekday when (according to the timetable) all C2C trains go to Fenchurch Street, not passing Stratford? Or on a weekend when some trains go to Fenchurch Street and some go to Liverpool Street via Stratford? Your mention of evening restrictions implies the former, while your mention of alighting at Stratford implies the latter. Or is it a special day with engineering works causing diversions?
It's a Saturday, but the restriction I quoted appears to apply any day. Perhaps I've misunderstood the unpublished restrictions, but either way the NLE and Trainsplit won't give me itineraries via that route. Anyway some great info you've given me, all food for thought.
Why would you go to Liverpool Street at all? The more natural way to make the journey from Benfleet is to leave via the mid-platform exit at Fenchurch Street, walk to Tower Hill, take the underground to Monument, leave from the front of the train and then change for the Northern line from Bank to Euston. Monument District Line to Bank Northern Line is about the same distance as Bank Central Line to Bank Northern Line.
It may be "natural" to you, but as indicated in my original post I'm not a regular London commuter so none of this is natural to me, and I'll be in a hurry so will catch the first London bound train I can rather than wait for one to Fenchurch Street. The Fenchurch Street connection wasn't suggested by any of the multi-modal journey planners I looked on, but thanks I'll look into it.
Regarding the Stratford restriction, my non-expert belief is that both the published and unpublished time restrictions should be read together with the immediately preceding day restrictions, that say that only Mon-Fri are restricted in both cases, so you can depart Stratford at any time on Saturday. Searching on nationalrail.co.uk with a via point of Highbury & Islington yields a route C2C - Stratford - Highbury & Islington - Euston (today and next Sat, but as @iphone76 says then no Stratford trains on Sat until 4 Apr), but the route is only validated for a Nuneaton - Benfleet ticket (also with 2C restriction), whereas for your split Nuneaton - Upminster it only accepts Highbury & Islington if you continue to Willesden Junction. I'll leave it to the fares experts of this forum to explain why (and also why it won't allow Highbury & Islington if you take C2C to West Ham).
Given that you're travelling on a Saturday the train frequencies in my calculations above will be different, but typically by only 0-1minutes. Although trains can still be very busy on weekends (as is currently discussed in another thread), I believe none on your potential routes will be too full to board. Below are some timings from Stratford (still using weekday frequencies for consistency).
Stratford - Bank - Euston
Cross-platform Stratford C2C - Central: 0min
Central Stratford - Bank: 11min, every 2min
Walk Bank Central - Northern: 3min
Northern Bank - Euston: 10min, every 3min
Walk Euston Northern - NR: 3min
Stratford - Liverpool Street - Moorgate - Euston
C2C Stratford - Liverpool Street: 9min
Walk Liverpool Street C2C - Moorgate Northern: 11min
Northern Moorgate - Euston: 8min, every 3min
Walk Euston Northern - NR: 3min
Stratford - Liverpool Street - Euston Square
C2C Stratford - Liverpool Street: 9min
Walk Liverpool Street C2C - H&C/Met/Circle: 3min
H&C/Met/Circle Liverpool Street - Euston Square: 11min, every 3min
Walk Euston Square - Euston NR: 9min
Stratford - Highbury & Islington - Euston
Stratford C2C - Overground: 2min
Overground Stratford - Highbury & Islington: 15min, every 5-8min
Walk Highbury & Islington Overground - Victoria: 3min
Victoria Highbury & Islington - Euston: 4min, every 2min
Walk Euston Victoria - NR: 3min
Stratford - Oxford Circus - Euston
Cross-platform Stratford C2C - Central: 0min
Central Stratford - Oxford Circus: 19min, every 2min
Walk Oxford Circus Central - Victoria: 2min
Victoria Oxford Circus - Euston: 3min, every 2min
Walk Euston Victoria - NR: 3min
To summarise, the fastest routes take roughly the same time from West Ham and Stratford (28-35min and 27-31min respectively), so choose your train from Benfleet based on which one arrives at those stations first. Looking at the repeating pattern on the regular Saturday timetable, you've got
Benfleet xx01 - West Ham xx36
Benfleet xx05 - West Ham xx58
Benfleet xx13 - Stratford xx52
every 30 minutes, so if you just miss the xx01/xx31 and are feeling adventurous you can risk skipping the xx05/xx35 train for the xx13/xx43 to save 7min.
Going to be very patchy over next few months - occasional complete diversions to LST too as lots of track maintenance is required between barking and fenchurch st.
My advice would be to take your time crossing London as is shown there are many permutations and so many things can occur to cost a few minutes that you'll get very stressed trying to work out the best permutations, also if your travelling late afternoon on a Saturday it can and probably will be very busy which again will slow you down. The late afternoon early evening Nuneaton service out of Euston (after your comment about the times you may be travelling) is 16:46, 17:07, 17:46, 18:46, 19:07, I would imagine as soon as your approaching Fenchurch Street or changing at Stratford (if that applies) it will become apparent which train you'll manage to connect with at Euston, either way don't stress too much.
Thanks for all the pointers everyone. Made it across London, off at Stratford, and it was obvious at that point I wasn't going to make the 19:33 out of Euston so took it easy via Bank.
Then I got to the gateline at Euston for the 20:20 Avanti train. Oh dear. Gentleman on the gateline asks to see my railcard then informs me (after marking my ticket) my ticket isn't valid as "we're not part of the gold card scheme". I tell him it is, and start looking for my pdf'd itinerary on my phone. Can't find it but suggest that he checks with one of his colleagues. He instead points me towards one of his colleagues.
She looks at my marked ticket and says "it's fine, it's already been checked". I walk through. A good thing I wasn't in a hurry.
Someone should tell National Rail Enquiries then, as I got an itinerary on Avanti trains outbound and return with my ticket. I also specifically chose that ticket and paid more than a split at Milton Keynes for a travelcard fare, because Trainsplit indicated that the Upminster gold card fare was valid on Avanti on the way home.
Thanks for all the pointers everyone. Made it across London, off at Stratford, and it was obvious at that point I wasn't going to make the 19:33 out of Euston so took it easy via Bank.
Then I got to the gateline at Euston for the 20:20 Avanti train. Oh dear. Gentleman on the gateline asks to see my railcard then informs me (after marking my ticket) my ticket isn't valid as "we're not part of the gold card scheme". I tell him it is, and start looking for my pdf'd itinerary on my phone. Can't find it but suggest that he checks with one of his colleagues. He instead points me towards one of his colleagues.
She looks at my marked ticket and says "it's fine, it's already been checked". I walk through. A good thing I wasn't in a hurry.
I'm glad what I offered in taking your time, not getting stressed helped, not surprising then that the famous Euston gateline knocked you back for a few minutes
A quick check using a TOC web site for ticket purchase indicates that the Gold Card discount fare is applicable when the journey between London and Nuneaton is on London Northwestern. The fare without the discount and allowing travel on Avanti is £59.40.
A quick check using a TOC web site for ticket purchase indicates that the Gold Card discount fare is applicable when the journey between London and Nuneaton is on London Northwestern.
Someone should tell National Rail Enquiries then, as I got an itinerary on Avanti trains outbound and return with my ticket. I also specifically chose that ticket and paid more than a split at Milton Keynes for a travelcard fare, because Trainsplit indicated that the Upminster gold card fare was valid on Avanti on the way home.
If you want to rely on an itinerary to prove valudity of a ticket, or tickets, it needs to be an itinerary issued in conjunction with the ourchase of the ticket(s). NRE do not sell tickets and therefore an itinerary from NRE cannot prove validity of your discounted tickets.
Avanti set the base fare but other operators are at liberty to offer discounts on the fare. Avanti choose not to offer or accept that particular discounts as they are not part of that scheme.
The mid platform (Crosswall / Cutlers Row) exit are Fenchurch Street, followed by a quick and short walk to Aldgate, from where there are circle and metropolitan line trains to Euston, is pretty easy and involves far fewer steps going up and down (though no lifts at Aldgate).
