• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TPE (?) Penalty Fares

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,783
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If TVMs are provided at stations, it really should be mandatory to provide one either on every platform or such that you would pass it going from any entrance to any platform, if that's fewer (e.g. a quiet station with one entrance could have one by the entrance even if it has 4 platforms, but if you had a 3-platformed station with 5 entrances one on each platform/island somewhere around where trains stop might be preferable). Indeed not everyone is mobile enough to be walking around looking for one.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Skymonster

Established Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
1,729
Screens on the 68 set days Penalty Fares starting 01FEB 2020 across the network except in Scotland
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
But for some reason the railway seems to dislike provision of accurate signage informing correct behaviour.

Anyone would think that rinsing people making innocent errors was extremely lucrative for the TOCs and bottom-feeders like Transport Investigations!
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,749
Location
Yorkshire
If TVMs are provided at stations, it really should be mandatory to provide one either on every platform or such that you would pass it going from any entrance to any platform, if that's fewer (e.g. a quiet station with one entrance could have one by the entrance even if it has 4 platforms, but if you had a 3-platformed station with 5 entrances one on each platform/island somewhere around where trains stop might be preferable). Indeed not everyone is mobile enough to be walking around looking for one.
Unless it's changed recently I have major concerns about Garforth when the ticket office is closed (it's closed every time I'm there!)
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,749
Location
Yorkshire
Just to confirm, TPE Guards are not going to be authorised collectors, is that correct?

As for the agency staff, I bet their training is poor.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,871
Location
Sheffield
Just to confirm, TPE Guards are not going to be authorised collectors, is that correct?

As for the agency staff, I bet their training is poor.

The 3 I met last week included the leader who was experienced, one who'd just started that week and the third who'd done 2 months. A fast learning curve.
 

philthetube

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
3,762
This morning at Huddersfield there was an automated announcement saying that Penalty Fares would be in operation from the 2nd of February.

At Huddersfield this shouldn't make too much difference as the ticket barriers are in operation most of the time, the issues will be at smaller stations along the line without ticket offices. If there is a problem with the ticket machine can the guard check this or are you at the mercy of whether they believe you?
Some of the small North Trans Pennine route stations are Northern operated despite no longer having a Northern service calling there (e.g. Marsden), given their track record at maintaining TVMs what will be the incentive to keep them maintained when it doesn't effect their revenue?

Commission?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,382
Last edited:

Jonny

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,562
Why would they not meet said regulation? I assume you mean in relation to section 8? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/8/made

The way that they are displayed at Newcastle (apart from the Platforms 5-8 island, which most people will not come across because of how Newcastle central station is laid out) also falls short of the "readily visible" criteria that the law specifies. They might be on a yellow background, sure, but they are between A3 and A4 size and stuck on pillars or doors in places that are easier to miss than see. In other words, more botched implementation. Never mind that some of the more obvious ones at Chester-le-Street, placed by Northern Rail, state "from ... March" (sorry, I can't remember which day, might be 19th but is otherwise a case of ^same difference^) but at least one fails to specify the year and could be argued as invalid prior to March of any year whilst it remains on display (given that notices are equivalent to documents, and tribunals etc. do not like ambiguity). In other words, it might be a good idea (in fact it is definitely a good idea if it makes sure that journeys to/from Chester-le-Street count in the ticket sales statistics) but it is badly implemented.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,871
Location
Sheffield
Usually the wording used is not exactly the same as in Schedule 1.

Schedule:
“...otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;
Poster:
“...otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare”

It is generally believed that would make the notice invalid...

This is one of two signs at my local station and I'd say it is compliant.It replaced a previous sign that looked almost identical except TPE wasn't in the bottom right hand corner. It too looks to have been compliant. Copies below. The swap must have happened about 3 or 4 weeks ago. So far I haven't heard of anyone being asked to pay a Penaty Fare, although I'm sure there must have been some on Northern.

WP_20200122_15_52_24_Pro.jpg WP_20181107_10_02_53_Raw_LI.jpg
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,382
This is one of two signs at my local station and I'd say it is compliant.It replaced a previous sign that looked almost identical except TPE wasn't in the bottom right hand corner. It too looks to have been compliant. Copies below. The swap must have happened about 3 or 4 weeks ago. So far I haven't heard of anyone being asked to pay a Penaty Fare, although I'm sure there must have been some on Northern.

View attachment 73363 View attachment 73366
I’d agree they mean the same, but a number of previous posters over the last couple of years have insisted the wording being slightly different is enough to make them invalid...
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,871
Location
Sheffield
I’d agree they mean the same, but a number of previous posters over the last couple of years have insisted the wording being slightly different is enough to make them invalid...

I rather suspect that as soon as the TOCs were challenged on the wording they quickly changed all notices to comply. My earlier picture was taken in November 2018 so it must have happened quite quickly. The body of the notice doesn't say "have".
 

2L70

On Moderation
Joined
18 Feb 2019
Messages
355
Location
Barnetby
The unreliability of TVMs(Barnetby hardly ever works) means a lot of revenue I know are reasonable when it comes to PFs.

However, when you’re desperate like TPE it’s another matter. Have already spoken to a couple of regular people who use the South Route to know what to expect.
 

Bungle965

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
2 Jul 2014
Messages
2,845
Location
Blackley and Broughton/ Walsall South
The unreliability of TVMs(Barnetby hardly ever works) means a lot of revenue I know are reasonable when it comes to PFs.

However, when you’re desperate like TPE it’s another matter. Have already spoken to a couple of regular people who use the South Route to know what to expect.
Unlike Northern however, TPE generally have a better kept list as to the out of order TVM's on their journey check page.
I do know what you mean about the machines themselves though, the ones at Huddersfield are similarly awful.
Sam
 

mikeg

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2010
Messages
1,749
Location
Selby
Case in point, today at Thirsk, there was a queue at the ticket office. Used the TVM. Excruciatingly slow, sometimes it times out on itself while fetching the fares list and goes back to the start. This time it didn't, but after pressing 'confirm', the card reader came on, but the screen didn't update to the payment one. By the time the payment screen had loaded, the card reader timed out. The message then said there was an error processing the transaction.

Of course, next time it will probably work fine, but how the hell are normal people meant to deal with this. Also when the ticket office is closed and there are five people who have to go through this farce, are we really to be told this is an adequate purchasing opportunity?
If I'd gone to the ticket office I'd have been served faster despite the queue. Luckily the train I was waiting for was a Grand Central service. Otherwise I'd have risked a penalty fare or been late for work!

What I'd like to know is whether anyone will be charged a penalty fare in line with the situation outlined in the 'common sense' revenue protection policy in TPE's franchise agreement, many of which are standard penalty fare situations. I'm interested to know whether anyone will consider this a franchise breach.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,749
Location
Yorkshire
I'd take a photo of the machine in such a situation

as for GC I'd generally be wanting to buy on board to reward them for having a sensible policy and let them have the commission.

I'd certainly be wanting to avoid giving TPE my commission; if I really wanted to buy before boarding a GC I'd be getting an e-ticket from Trainsplit.
 

mikeg

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2010
Messages
1,749
Location
Selby
Good point, I usually buy before I board even for GC, if the guard didn't have time to come round I'd have to purchase at York and that would possibly make me late. I seldom use the machine, the situation where I do like to give TPE commission is by supporting the ticket office, where the staff are excellent. Stevie is a particular asset and there's another guy who's name escapes me who's very much an old-school basher. Therefore imho the ticket office deserves support, even if TPE don't. To clarify, I did end up paying on the train in the end.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top