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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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bramling

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So you don't understand then. The withdrawal agreement is not a deal.

Thanks for confirming what I think a lot of us on here already thought about your grasp of the situation.

Either way, we are certainly relieved to have people such as you at the helm.

Hence why I said *thusfar* achieved and *part* of leaving with a deal.

I'm well aware there's more still to do, however so far things are on the right track, and the predictions of doom simply haven't arisen. Unemployment has fallen, inflation has tended to hover around the 2% target, and people generally don't feel badly off.
 

edwin_m

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The problem is that in relation to keeping us in the EU the time for that discussion and the financial investment [in re-balancing to the North] needed was a decade or more ago.
I agree. But leaving the EU isn't going to solve those problems and in several ways will make them worse than otherwise. Specifically the economy is likely to be smaller, particularly hitting those less prosperous areas, so the government tax take will also be smaller making it more difficult to invest. And the government will be preoccupied with Brexit and the aftermath, so less able to focus on the real problems.

Many leavers actually expected to suffer some degree of pain associated with leaving, I don't think it's right to insinuate that leavers thought / think everything is going to be pure sweetness and honey. Like everything in life it's a trade-off. Personally I've taken a (very slight) hit with interest rates falling, for example, which I fully expected and factored in to my leave vote.
You may be prepared to suffer for your beliefs, but you have no right to expect others to suffer for something they strongly believe to be wrong.
 

bramling

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You may be prepared to suffer for your beliefs, but you have no right to expect others to suffer for something they strongly believe to be wrong.

Absolutely, however if enough people feel the same way... I know loser's consent doesn't seem to apply much to the remain side.

In any case, surely the same applies with any political choice? I'm sure that if Corbyn had been elected elements of mine, and many other people's, personal finances would have taken quite a hit. Does that mean no one had any right to vote Labour?

(As an aside, it occurs to me that the term "remain" is essentially obsolete now, I suppose we wait to see if a "rejoin" side materialises).
 
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Doppelganger

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elements of mine, and many other people's, personal finances would have taken quite a hit
Nice to see how you are looking at the greater good.

Sod society as long as I'm alright jack.

This is exactly why there is such a divide, those who look at a greater good and those who are selfish. Thatherism is alive and well I see.
 

VauxhallandI

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I love the way it’s framed up as “coping”, straight away with an inference of distress. I think back to all the dire predictions of empty supermarket shelves, people dying because they can’t get vital medication, Kent gridlocked, job losses galore, violence in Northern Ireland and all the rest, and strangely enough none of it has happened. On the positive side EU immigration has already shown signs of falling.

Just like we went from "it's going to be amazing" to "we will just about be ok" from the Leave side.
 

Struner

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Does anyone think, due to leaving the EU. That the CE mark on electrical goods will be removed.
Of course! But you can’t take them in to your local MoT :(. You’ll have to do it yourself :(. Just go along to the Post Office for your free stickers to cover up the marks. The ones distributed in Ireland & Scotland will be easily removable, so it won’t take long to get rid off them when those countries are back home. :E
 

bramling

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Just like we went from "it's going to be amazing" to "we will just about be ok" from the Leave side.

It's funny how I've seen, here and on the news, remainers suggesting that our politicians will henceforth have to be more accountable in that they will find it much less easy to scapegoat ... as if that's a bad thing.

I know the pro-EU side is by definition wedded to the EU with its inherent democratic deficit, however personally I find it a good thing that laws will henceforth be made in this country by our elected politicians, and if I dislike something then if enough people feel the same way the politicians concerned can be voted out. Likewise the last election has raised an awareness that politicians can no longer expect to treat certain parts of Britain as "thanks for your votes guys, see you again in four years". Not sure I'd go as far as to say amazing, but certainly steps in the right direction.
 
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Howardh

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I'm disputing that UK unemployment is at an all time low. Plenty of studies out there suggest the real figure is far higher.
I'm unemployed. I'm not claiming benefits so I'm not on the register of unemployment! But to be fair I'm not looking for a job at all, just waiting patiently for my pensions and annuities.
 

dgl

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Oh and supposedly people doing work experience through the job centre are "employed".
Also remember if a company employs two people for 16 hours each rather than one at 32 hours then that's more people in employment. The fact that someone on 16 hours at even the living wage can't afford to live is un-important to the government.

Also remember that to a company such as Uber the amount of "employees" they can afford to employ is effectively limitless, it's just as they get more "employees" everyone gets less work, again they are all still "employed" just not really earning anything.
 

edwin_m

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Absolutely, however if enough people feel the same way... I know loser's consent doesn't seem to apply much to the remain side.
When there's been no convincing reason given to Leave … and the details of Leaving are very different from what was suggested in 2016 … and there were blatant lies by that campaign … and there has been no attempt to recognize the concerns of nearly 48% of voters in 2016 … which according to polls had become a majority in 2019 … then it's hardly surprising that a significant proportion of Remainers find this very hard to accept.
 

DerekC

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I love the way it’s framed up as “coping”, straight away with an inference of distress. I think back to all the dire predictions of empty supermarket shelves, people dying because they can’t get vital medication, Kent gridlocked, job losses galore, violence in Northern Ireland and all the rest, and strangely enough none of it has happened. On the positive side EU immigration has already shown signs of falling.

I see that you do just want to keep on and on and on with the same old tired stuff. The reason that not much has happened yet is that we haven't actually left the single market and customs area yet.

Maybe it's too early to suggest moving on. It's interesting - perhaps Leavers will never get over winning the referendum, rather in the same way that Britain has never really got over winning WWII.
 

bramling

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When there's been no convincing reason given to Leave … and the details of Leaving are very different from what was suggested in 2016 … and there were blatant lies by that campaign … and there has been no attempt to recognize the concerns of nearly 48% of voters in 2016 … which according to polls had become a majority in 2019 … then it's hardly surprising that a significant proportion of Remainers find this very hard to accept.

One could quite rationally argue that it wasn’t really for leave to be making a case at all, as leave is simply returning the UK to the default state. If those who want to be members of the EU club (with its significant membership fees and requirements) wish to foist this on the country then they needed to make a strong and convincing case for that, which evidently they failed to do.

It’s a little academic now though, it will be interesting going forward to see if anyone puts forward a serious attempt at making a case for rejoining. Obviously Sturgeon will doubtlessly continue this in Scotland, no doubt linked in to her lifetime dream of independence, but I’m not sure we’ll see that elsewhere.
 

bramling

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The reason that not much has happened yet is that we haven't actually left the single market and customs area yet.

Yes, maybe. But that's just your prediction, which is just an opinion, yet you're framing it up as a certainty.

I'm sure I recall posts on here actively wanting Brexit to be a disaster, simply to prove a point.

Maybe it's too early to suggest moving on. It's interesting - perhaps Leavers will never get over winning the referendum, rather in the same way that Britain has never really got over winning WWII.

I think leave voters got over "winning" (more emotive language!) the referendum the morning afterwards.

What will take time to heal is the sheer bitterness which has been seen from some elements of the remain fraternity, and the eagerness to embrace every single trick in the book to attempt to subvert and frustrate the result of the referendum, which is sort of summed up by Bercow's "every bone in my body" comment. I don't think we should just simply "get over" that, as it represents an ugly and cautionary period in the history of Britain's democracy - where elements of one side simply refused to accept the result of a democratic exercise.

And it's not simply a case of people changing their minds over time, the day after the referendum social media was full of comments like "we don't have to accept this" or "this result is a mistake". Ironically, quite similar to the reaction from some of the Corbyn cult in response to December's election result.
 
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nlogax

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One could quite rationally argue that it wasn’t really for leave to be making a case at all, as leave is simply returning the UK to the default state. If those who want to be members of the EU club (with its significant membership fees and requirements) wish to foist this on the country then they needed to make a strong and convincing case for that, which evidently they failed to do.


I can't speak for others here, but to me, accepting the result is a non-issue. There's no avoiding it, there's no getting around the fact that the UK is no longer a member state of the EU. We deal with the outcome and continue to live our lives in spite of the economic, financial and societal disruption and decline that has and will result. Some of us are lucky enough in our lives that it won't cause a massive immediate impact. Some of us aren't so lucky.

What I can't fathom is the generally dismissive nature of certain responses to perfectly rational and sensible questions about whether that disruption is acknowledged or understood.

If you've any sense of empathy or even just a crumb of sympathy, I strongly suggest now is the time to demonstrate it. The long build up to what was the final exit date has seen people losing jobs, homes and in some cases families have been split apart. This trend will continue and risks worsening if there is no final trade deal. Your responses on this particular topic continue to be obtuse and lack any sense of real understanding of what this actually means to people who aren't you. I'm Alright Jack isn't the approach to be taking to anyone who's experiencing hardship or uncertainty at a time like this. It's a real shame.
 

Grimsby town

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Yes, maybe. But that's just your prediction, which is just an opinion, yet you're framing it up as a certainty.

I'm sure I recall posts on here actively wanting Brexit to be a disaster, simply to prove a point.



I think leave voters got over "winning" (more emotive language!) the referendum the morning afterwards.

What will take time to heal is the sheer bitterness which has been seen from some elements of the remain fraternity, and the eagerness to embrace every single trick in the book to attempt to subvert and frustrate the result of the referendum, which is sort of summed up by Bercow's "every bone in my body" comment. I don't think we should just simply "get over" that, as it represents an ugly and cautionary period in the history of Britain's democracy - where one side simply refused to accept the result of a democratic exercise.

And it's not simply a case of people changing their minds over time, the day after the referendum social media was full of comments like "we don't have to accept this" or "this result is a mistake". Ironically, quite similar to the reaction from some of the Corbyn cult in response to December's election result.

Parts of the remain vote have hardly showered themselves in glory but the leave side have hardly acted magnanimous in victory by burning EU flags, telling people they lost get over it. Yes remainers have to be open to accepting Brexit but leavers have to prove that brexit has some benefits. Nobody in Johnson's governments is considering how remainers could be appeased through acts such as proposing associate EU citizenship for those willing to pay.

You say that Corbyn voters didn't accept the election result and I agree momentum are hardly a prime example of a democratic group but remain parties / 2nd referendum parties got a higher vote share than Brexit parties. Brexiters were saying a few months ago that there'd be consquences if leave voters are ignored but won't these very same consequences occur if remain voters are ignored?
 
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Well, I woke up this morning - a little later than planned due to some bubbly consumed last night.... the sun was up, birds were singing, the wife was in a good mood (as always lol) and yes, I’m still European because of course leaving the EU doesn’t mean you’re not European anymore (not that the left wing press will tell you that).

Just to reassure my remainer friends....
 

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TrafficEng

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It means you simply can't set off on a whim and expect to be let in with just your passport as happened before (example, someone in London fancying a Eurostar to Lille for some shopping the same day). You need to establish your ETIAS which takes around 72hrs as alluded to already - more if there's an issue.

The ETIAS would be valid for three years, so if someone decides on a whim to head off to France and hasn't already applied for an ETIAS (or has allowed theirs to expire) then they'd be in no different position than they would if they hadn't thought to apply for a passport or hadn't renewed theirs when it expired. The only difference is needing the second document and renewing it every three years (if necessary).

And that's assuming some kind of deal isn't done which avoids the need for an ETIAS anyway.

Also, does anyone actually travel on Eurostar to Lille to do some shopping on a whim? Anytime I've been involved in trying to book that close to travel the trains are either full or the ticket price is exorbitant.

If someone can afford to travel on Eurostar to go shopping on a whim they will probably have a butler to sort their ETIAS out for them.
 

bramling

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What I can't fathom is the generally dismissive nature of certain responses to perfectly rational and sensible questions about whether that disruption is acknowledged or understood.

Of course people understand that there is a risk of disruption, although so far any effects have been pretty minimal if that. These sorts of issues are for the government to manage, which so far they have satisfactorily done. I'd like to think *everyone* hopes this will continue, as opposed to having people wanting there to be problems in order for them to be able to say "I told you so".

If you've any sense of empathy or even just a crumb of sympathy, I strongly suggest now is the time to demonstrate it. The long build up to what was the final exit date has seen people losing jobs, homes and in some cases families have been split apart.

Yet strangely amidst this supposedly terrible backdrop, the most recent general election result strongly endorsed a party advocating pressing on with this project. One can only conclude that this negativity simply isn't biting most people, which leads one to wonder if things are being overplayed. Especially when one considers all the dire predictions about food shortages, emergency budgets, et cetera.

This trend will continue and risks worsening if there is no final trade deal. Your responses on this particular topic continue to be obtuse and lack any sense of real understanding of what this actually means to people who aren't you. I'm Alright Jack isn't the approach to be taking to anyone who's experiencing hardship or uncertainty at a time like this. It's a real shame.

Has the remain side demonstrated any real acknowledgement of some of the negatives associated with EU membership?

For example concerns regarding wages being depressed by freedom of movement, housing shortages particularly for younger people, the high level of our financial contribution to the EU (as highlighted by the extortionately high divorce bill), constant domestic political wrangling over European issues which has been going on for most of my lifetime, or the lack of direct accountability of EU politicians to domestic voters? What about the high unemployment in other EU countries which seems to be at least partially regarded as consequential to loss of monetary policy as a result of the single currency? We have one person alleging that a relative has lost their job as a result of Brexit, however we also have people moaning because it won't be quite so easy to go on a shopping jolly to Lille.

Whether *I'm* alright isn't really important, as my vote was just one. Evidently 17 million other people also felt the benefits of being a club member do not outweigh the costs, furthermore two and a half years down the line the general election result reinforced this despite all the negativity surrounding the original decision.

As you say, there is a risk of worsening *if* there is no final trade deal. A lot of the uncertainty could have been avoided if we hadn't spent over two years struggling to come to terms with the referendum result. It's an interesting conjecture as to how things might have gone had Theresa May not lost her majority in 2017.
 
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GusB

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It's nothing to do with racism, honest ;)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-engla...Fl_YXSwWXSaltNclaDKsLcQhPkFZ7YvDAE8o2PDRfhVkY

"Happy Brexit Day" notices telling residents "we do not tolerate" people speaking languages other than English have been posted at a block of flats.

A resident of Winchester Tower in Norwich first spotted them at 06:00 GMT on Friday, as first reported in the Eastern Daily Press.

The man, who does not want to be named, has reported the signs - which he said were on every floor - to the police.

He said: "It's heartbreaking that someone could think like this."

The UK officially left the European Union on Friday at 23:00 GMT after 47 years of membership, and more than three years after it voted to do so in a referendum.

The signs say: "We finally have our great country back... we do not tolerate people speaking other languages than English in the flats."

They go on to say "we are now our own country again" and the "Queens [sic] English is the spoken tongue here".

_110737001_capture.jpg
Image copyrightGOOGLE
Image captionThe block of flats is owned by Norwich City Council and is for tenants over the age of 55
The resident said he discovered the first sign as he was heading out of the block in Vauxhall Street on Friday morning, and returned to his own floor where he spotted the second notice.

He alerted the caretaker, who removed the signs, and a local councillor.

The caretaker told him the notices were stuck on the fire doors on all 15 floors of the Norwich City Council block of flats for tenants who are over the age of 55.

County councillor Emma Corlett advised the resident to report the notices as a hate crime and she also contacted her neighbourhood police team.

She said: "It's a really quiet block of flats with a good sense of community spirit and a lot of people have lived there for a long time."

The resident said: "It's heartbreaking not only for those it's directed at but also for the person posting it."

Norfolk Police have been contacted for a comment.
 

najaB

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Grenfell was an ageing tower block built to poor standards...
How about sticking with actual fact, rather than your reality. Grenfell (and other similar blocks) had been refurbished recently and (other than the cladding, obviously) met all the applicable standards. If not for the cladding a fire in any flat would have been contained for at least 30 minutes (as demonstrated by previous fires in other blocks).

All the interviews I saw with residents said that, other than minor antisocial issues, they were more than happy with the flats, which were larger than is common these days.
 

bramling

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How about sticking with actual fact, rather than your reality. Grenfell (and other similar blocks) had been refurbished recently and (other than the cladding, obviously) met all the applicable standards. If not for the cladding a fire in any flat would have been contained for at least 30 minutes (as demonstrated by previous fires in other blocks).

All the interviews I saw with residents said that, other than minor antisocial issues, they were more than happy with the flats, which were larger than is common these days.

If that’s the case, why so much in the media and elsewhere about people living in sub-standard conditions? I for one would not feel safe living in a high-rise that had only one stairwell.

In other news it seems Scotland has had a bit of a reality check from the EU, being told a re-joining Scotland would need to abide by all treaty obligations, which presumably would include joining the single currency. One wonders how well that will go down.
 

Bantamzen

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Whether *I'm* alright isn't really important, as my vote was just one. Evidently 17 million other people also felt the benefits of being a club member do not outweigh the costs, furthermore two and a half years down the line the general election result reinforced this despite all the negativity surrounding the original decision.

Oh come on, do you honestly believe even for a minute that 17.4 million people voted because after taking all factors into account, they did not feel that the financial benefits of being an EU member outweighed leaving? Given the complexity of that debate, along with the fact that the leave campaign rarely got into that kind of detail, or indeed any kind of detail, makes this very, very unlikely. What the leave campaign succeeded in was to convince 17.4 million people that if we left the EU everything would be fine, honest gov, this Brexit is a beauty, she'll not let you down.....

As you say, there is a risk of worsening *if* there is no final trade deal. A lot of the uncertainty could have been avoided if we hadn't spent over two years struggling to come to terms with the referendum result. It's an interesting conjecture as to how things might have gone had Theresa May not lost her majority in 2017.

We haven't been struggling to come to terms with it. As with most things Brexit, the detail has been ignored in favour of rhetoric. The complex process that has taken so long is as a result of leavers thinking that Brexit was just a button the PM could press with impunity, and not something requiring legislation as determined by centuries worth of law. Members of the House have, and rightly so, been questioning exactly what Brexit entailed and what the possible consequences of it might mean for this country, and not just taking leaver's word for it. Of course the hard core Brexiteers won't tell you this, after all trade deals with huge trading blocks can be done over a cup of coffee, especially when they are desperate to be our friends & will offer us deals far better than we could have dreamed of being part of the EU....

Now, where are our rainbows and unicorns....??
 

Peter Kelford

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1) let population decline naturally,restiction to core immigration only,take the economic hit ,and plan for evacuations of high risk areas
2) let's have open house, nice short term economic bump, followed by climate" event" and then mass death+cannibalism due to cut off of available agriculture areas and usable port facilities, and all those extra mouths to feed.

This is plain scaremongering

It means you simply can't set off on a whim and expect to be let in with just your passport as happened before (example, someone in London fancying a Eurostar to Lille for some shopping the same day). You need to establish your ETIAS which takes around 72hrs as alluded to already - more if there's an issue.
And your passport has to have at least 6 months validity on it (maybe 6 months to the return date, I dunno?) so anyone who's passport is due to expire next year needs to bear that in mind.

These restrictions didn't even happen before we joined the EEC, indeed one could purchase an one-day passport for France from the Post Office. Welcome to the future and all the red tape it brings, when I though leaving the EU was meant to reduce red tape? Ha.

For instance, last time I was in France, I only booked 3hrs before my Eurostar was due to leave.

I love the way it’s framed up as “coping”, straight away with an inference of distress. I think back to all the dire predictions of empty supermarket shelves, people dying because they can’t get vital medication, Kent gridlocked, job losses galore, violence in Northern Ireland and all the rest, and strangely enough none of it has happened. On the positive side EU immigration has already shown signs of falling.

Nothing positive about the reduction in immigration.

When you say "it's not about race", not entirely sure I believe you.

@bramling literally said here that this was about Eastern Europeans. And repeatedly says so here, here and here. Isn't 'overpopulation' and an inferior race the argument the NSDAP made for their actions? To note another point, @bramling 's impressions of Europeans appear to be limited to unskilled semi-slaves.
 
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