Safeguards in place to prevent fraud?

Cyan95146 · 31 Jan 2020

I'm just surprised how easy it is to 'screen shot' e-tickets / m tickets etc.

You'd think safeguards would be in place to prevent fraud?

I recall travelling back from KGX on an LNER service and same situation but the passenger refused to pay. She said to the revenue staff on-board , who were just going about their jobs, that they were very rude and she felt harassed.

At the end of the day it was her fault for not producing a valid, acceptable formatted ticket. I don't understand why this is so hard for fellow passengers to get right!

Anyway once alighting at Leeds, I told a manager from LNER that the on-board staff acted professional throughout and were very polite in their duties. At no point was the passenger harassed.

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yorkie · 31 Jan 2020

Cyan95146 said:
I'm just surprised how easy it is to 'screen shot' e-tickets / m tickets etc.

You'd think safeguards would be in place to prevent fraud?

I think you misunderstand what e tickets are. They contain unique barcodes. The safeguards in place require the barcodes to be scanned.

If they are properly scanned they are a lot less subject to fraud and a lot more secure than paper tickets.

I've seen fake paper tickets that were mass produced in Romania which are accepted at gatelines!

trentside · 31 Jan 2020

There is currently a big push at some TOCs to increase the rate at which e-tickets and m-tickets are being scanned. Due to fraudulent travel and refund requests. Scanning them correctly should in theory prevent this.

sheff1 · 31 Jan 2020

Surely one of the key points about e-tickets is that they should be scanned when inspected but, although my e-tickets have always been scanned when travelling in other European countries, it seems to be pretty standard on Northern and quite common on XC & EMT(regional) for e-tickets not to be scanned.

setdown · 31 Jan 2020

I don’t blame the staff for not scanning everyone’s barcodes if they have to use the android-based devices that use the camera. When I’ve seen those used, the guard has to point at the ticket for at least 5 or 10 seconds, I assume they’re waiting for the camera to focus.

Wallsendmag · 31 Jan 2020

I blame the TOC for not supplying scanners

yorkie · 31 Jan 2020

My experience with XC was very efficient; I simply opened up the PDF file, had it ready on the first ticket, it was scanned instantly, scrolled to the next ticket, same again instant scan, scrolled to the last, instant. The whole thing, checking three tickets, took about 10 seconds max.

matt_world2004 · 31 Jan 2020

How do these work if they are scanned on the entry gateline , on route and on exit. Does it have three slots indicating where it could be scanned.

yorkie · 31 Jan 2020

matt_world2004 said:
How do these work if they are scanned on the entry gateline , on route and on exit. Does it have three slots indicating where it could be scanned.

I don't understand the question. But in my experience they are no less likely to work a gateline than paper tickets. I would assume the logic is set up in a similar way.

Birmingham Moor Street never accepts my paper tickets yet did accept my e ticket. The only times I can recall the gates not accepting my e ticket is when the software provider hadn't deployed the keys to decrypt the e ticket.

The logic of valid locations (if that's what you mean) is not going to be stored within the ticket, that's going to be down to the gateline.

I don't understand what you mean by 'slots' either but I doubt there is a practical limit to the number of times they can be scanned. When scanning there is the option to 'clip' (some scanners may be set to 'clip' automatically); I've not heard of any limit to the number of times they can be 'clipped' but my guess would be there is no practical limit.

matt_world2004 · 31 Jan 2020

yorkie said:
I don't understand the question. But in my experience they are no less likely to work a gateline than paper tickets. I would assume the logic is set up in a similar way.

Birmingham Moor Street never accepts my paper tickets yet did accept my e ticket. The only times I can recall the gates not accepting my e ticket is when the software provider hadn't deployed the keys to decrypt the e ticket.

The logic of valid locations (if that's what you mean) is not going to be stored within the ticket, that's going to be down to the gateline.

I don't understand what you mean by 'slots' either but I doubt there is a practical limit to the number of times they can be scanned. When scanning there is the option to 'clip' (some scanners may be set to 'clip' automatically); I've not heard of any limit to the number of times they can be 'clipped' but my guess would be there is no practical limit.

If they are scanned multiple times , how does it no that the ticket hasn't been reused.

Starmill · 31 Jan 2020

The last time I used an e-ticket it was for a journey from Peterborough to Manchester, on two different trains and using theoretically gated stations.

The tickets were inspected visually several times but at no point scanned. This has been common for years.

Loads of companies have given their staff a phone to scan tickets with, which seems completely and utterly crazy to me. But that's up to them!

Paul Kelly · 31 Jan 2020

matt_world2004 said:
If they are scanned multiple times , how does it no that the ticket hasn't been reused.

It doesn't as far as I know. Needs human interpretation.

Wallsendmag · 31 Jan 2020

matt_world2004 said:
If they are scanned multiple times , how does it no that the ticket hasn't been reused.

With our onboard TIS you don't need the phone in your hand to scan just the scanner. This makes various different buzzes beeps and other sounds to indicate the status of the scanned ticket. If it has already been scanned a visual inspection of the phone will reveal where.

edwin_m · 31 Jan 2020

Presumably if scanned by a gate at the origin station the journey is registered on the database as having started, and a gate scan at the destination indicates it has finished (so if you scan the return half by accident when starting out you may get problems later?). For intermediate scans the location must be recorded and anyone scanning must be able to access the record of previous scans and judge whether the ticket is being used legitimately.

221129 · 31 Jan 2020

matt_world2004 said:
If they are scanned multiple times , how does it no that the ticket hasn't been reused.

Because it can tell you where it was scanned.

bunnahabhain · 31 Jan 2020

There are some companies where staff don't have an agreement to use the technology, but the technology itself was pushed out because central government was funding it and you had to bid for the money... So why not get something for free?

As somebody who sees these from the staff side I see the benefits from using them, I also see the downsides and I'm not sure they're fully appreciated yet by the industry.

Wallsendmag · 31 Jan 2020

edwin_m said:
Presumably if scanned by a gate at the origin station the journey is registered on the database as having started, and a gate scan at the destination indicates it has finished (so if you scan the return half by accident when starting out you may get problems later?).

It'll be rejected as an entry at an incorrect location no way you would enter at your destination.

Starmill · 31 Jan 2020

You will not necessarily find every scan shows up on every machine.

I recently bought a Cheshire Day Ranger at Stockport, which was scanned at Manchester Piccadilly the same evening. At that point, the issue time and entry at the gates at Stockport (Avanti West Coast) were shown, but not a subsequent entry at Liverpool Lime Street (Northern) or a scan from a TransPennine Express guard.

It wasn't possible to scan on Merseyrail, of course.

gray1404 · 1 Feb 2020

Starmill said:
You will not necessarily find every scan shows up on every machine.

I recently bought a Cheshire Day Ranger at Stockport, which was scanned at Manchester Piccadilly the same evening. At that point, the issue time and entry at the gates at Stockport (Avanti West Coast) were shown, but not a subsequent entry at Liverpool Lime Street (Northern) or a scan from a TransPennine Express guard.

It wasn't possible to scan on Merseyrail, of course.

Was this a ranger issued as a e ticket or a paper ticket with a barcode?

edwin_m · 1 Feb 2020

Wallsendmag said:
It'll be rejected as an entry at an incorrect location no way you would enter at your destination.

But if you were not checked anywhere else on the return journey it could be that the first scan was legitimately at the barrier of the destination station. Or does it distinguish between scans entering and leaving the platform, so entering can't be the end of a journey?

Wallsendmag · 1 Feb 2020

edwin_m said:
But if you were not checked anywhere else on the return journey it could be that the first scan was legitimately at the barrier of the destination station. Or does it distinguish between scans entering and leaving the platform, so entering can't be the end of a journey?

Each side of a gateline is set to entry or exit

CrispyUK · 2 Feb 2020

To properly safeguard against fraud with e-tickets does however require every scanner (whether that is a gateline or conductor’s device or whatever else) to be ‘online’ so that it can report those scans back to a central database, and query/retrieve the previous scan history.

I suspect this isn’t always possible, on-train checks would require a permanent, stable and sufficiently fast data connection to do this in real-time.

This is probably why m-tickets came about, they’re not passenger friendly, but by making it so they can only be downloaded onto a single device, requiring them to be activated, etc. you can be more certain it hasn’t already been used, even if you can’t scan it and check the live history of that ticket.

Bletchleyite · 2 Feb 2020

CrispyUK said:
To properly safeguard against fraud with e-tickets does however require every scanner (whether that is a gateline or conductor’s device or whatever else) to be ‘online’ so that it can report those scans back to a central database, and query/retrieve the previous scan history.

I suspect this isn’t always possible, on-train checks would require a permanent, stable and sufficiently fast data connection to do this in real-time.

The scanner system used by Avanti does do an online check and reports back an issue with a slight delay, so the guard can go back if necessary - and they do do that.

Safeguards in place to prevent fraud?

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